Guaroz forgets that the info could still be collected but not be displayed to the average player. The mods would then have the info and an automated data mining routine could look for that regular occurrence and report the suspicious activity to the mods.

YCHTT, obviousely I perfectly recall whether we have such an automated data mining routine or we don't.
Unfortunately I also just recalled that Diplomacy sites tend to ban Mods who reveal security procedures in public, so I can't confirm nor deny it, sorry.
Actually, starting the security argument hasn't been very smart by me, please forget everything.

We tend to get a great many requests that we look into a game due to the logged in icon that everyone can see, at the same time we also get many requests that specifically deal with suspicious behaviour on the basis of support in a game (particularly in gunboat games). We look into all requests. Personally I feel that the removal of the logged-in status would be a benifit, as players will still report suspicious behaviour regardless of logged-in times - and in all honesty it is the requests that deal with suspicious behaviour that tend to get players banned, as opposed to log-in times which usually only provide the final nail in the coffin.

Here's why I like it:
1) I used to use it for anonymous games, but I found that once I knew who the other guy was, it didn't serve a purpose after 1901 when initial moves were over and I gave up. Thrill of the chase, I suppose.

2) Most importantly, I use it, along with the time stamps in non-anon games to determine if a player has had the chance to look at my press. If I send someone press and see they're on, then I should be receiving a reply if they don't log off. There have been times that I've sent press to a guy who logs on, logs off and doesn't respond. Many hours later, I see them back on and they reply. In some situations, I've been able to deduce that they used the time to talk to my enemy and share press they've had with me to setup a stab.

3) On webdip, I use it to check which mod is on right now and can look into a game that needs to be paused, especially when I'm running a tournament. It's helpful when we run the School of War when a TA wants to coordinate with the player they're working with, etc.

My computer at home is used by other family members and home page is vdip so last log on is kinda pointless.
@ Tru Ninja sorry if I've played you but that may be rather common

Well, tru, you should never use my time on or off to make any judgements because my phone browser is always on the index page so if I get on to google something, it refreshes the index page and records me as logged in even when I'm not. Your logic is simply flawed and doesn't take into account the variety of devices and ways in which people use them.

@ YCHTT that's some dedication!

Not dedication, addiction. :-)

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/RHZTRK2

What is the poll showing thus far?

So far:
83.33% support site wide removal of the logged in symbol.
66.67% support order status shown as an option during game creation


https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/RHZTRK2

Here
s my feeling about such surveys,
While it is important to give people what they want, it is more important to do what is best for the site and best for assuring the best quality games are played. You need to know that many are ill-informed (from both sides of the opinion) and you should decide based on the opinions of a few select players whose opinions you respect. These people should matter more than the general public.

Some have shown they simply wish to take advantage of a situation, they do no care about quality of game but rather personal stats only, to my thinking, you should not give a darn what those people think. What is best for the game is what is best for the site, quality games lead to a quality site.

and again, I say this applies to both sides of the discussion. We have stated our positions and the moderators (Who I would assume are trusted and well respected) need to decide amongst themselves. I simply say these people should not give in to the majority and decide based on what they feel would be best for the site, polls should mean little, the inmates can not be allowed to run the asylum!

I think based on the reasoned arguments thus far that the 83% who want the online button hidden have the best overall argument. While I disagree with the selective hiding of order status (I prefer to always hide it) I can live with whatever the mods/admins/Oli prefer to do with it. And I agree with Tom that a majority rule isn't necessarily the bed approach. It takes more than a vote to decide. There need to be reasoned arguments presented on both sides and then the executive powers decide what is best for the site. But the polls are interesting...

amen sister!

Kaner - How many people have selected each option? Percentages can be misleading - from those you've given it could be that only six people have taken the survey.

I guess it would be nice to know, but as I said and YCHTT agreed, we do not necessarily want a majority decision but rather those in charge to make a decision based on our opposing arguments for/against. A well run website is not run by ill formed opinions but rather by what those who know better think suits the site best. That will OFTEN fly in the face of popular opinion.

Just want to chime in to confirm that this is really not a "majority decision", but a decision ultimately made by me. And as I do not have much time to change anything on the code there is quite some time to discuss.
I didn't check the topic for quite some time, because of the personal attacks at the start of the discussion. I really hate these personal insults and trying to weaken the arguments of your opponent on a personal level is a no-go for me and as soon as someone falls back to personal attacks I discard the rest of the post.

Also this decision is not only discussed here on the forum, but I get quite some PM's and we had a discussion in the mod-forum too. So all sums up in my mind.

I try to avoid to give away my position on this topic to early, because this will influence the rest of the discussion too.

That all said at the moment I tend to remove the symbols as this would resolve quite some issues, but I clearly see valid points to keep them.

Can I ask those reasons you consider "Valid" to keep this feature? Of those spelled out, those against them have demonstrated how they really are not as valid as they would like to assume. I honestly see no "valid" reason to keep and in fact can point to those same reasons being counterproductive. The best reason (in MY opinion mind you) was to see who was currently on line to contact first. But as was also pointed out, due to logging out (or NOT logging out) this is not very accurate and if a person assumes one is online (wrongly based on this light) then they feel they are being ignored. The whole reason to keep the indicator is now doing just the opposite of what they wish!

How about another request (if possible?)
I just posted this and thought it better to just say nothing. Too late!
Is it possible to add a delete button for messages we sent?
I can not of course delete what someone else said, but for my OWN posts, why not be allowed to delete (or edit!)?

Oliver, I am not certain how feasible it is to provide these things as optional features vice eliminating the completely/leaving them in place, but I think that the Facebook example I provided follows a logic path to compromise on the opinions of the logged in example. I know that the Redscapee site I've participate on for a decade offers an option to appear online, or hidden.

For various reasons players may want to appear hidden while playing. I may be playing in two games, one with with Cypeg and another with DEFIANT. Let's say I am ignoring DEFIANT because he's made a request of me that I am uncomfortable with or just not ready to respond to yet, but I really need to be talking extensively with Cypeg on the other game. Maybe one game has less time before the deadline than the other. If I log on to message Cypeg, and DEFIANT sees me online, he thinks that I am ignoring him, when I'm really just prioritizing my Diplomacy messages and games. We're not playing FTF games where you see everyone who goes off in the other room to talk business. We're playing with turns lasting multiple days, and many times managing multiple games. Many players also play in anonymous games, which can be compromised by displaying the online status of players. It's just the nature of the online Dip gaming world. We're not all camped out in Oliver's living room where everyone can or should see everything. The ability to lurk is sacrosanct in the online Dip community.

Likewise with the orders submitted feature. We're not dealing with 15-30 minute deadlines. Players in the online world have much more time, and yet many more outside influences that affect our gaming play. The status of a players orders is really there own business., and displaying them for all to see offers nothing more than a way for NMRs to be more brutally exploited.

I am more likely to ally with someone who is online more, and subsequently replies more too. (this only applies to non anon games)

I don't know which way that means I should vote, is it bad that I am bias against players who are never online and never reply?

If they reply more anyways, does it matter whether or not you know if they're online?

exactly what I was going to say! So once again, the online status only works against itself. Those who like it are fooled by it one more time! And Ruffy gives another fine example as well, honestly, I have not seen one "good" reason to have this.

Mfarb - You assume online more means replies more and online less means rarely replies. That's a bogus connection. Just because I drive more doesn't mean I speed more. You are assuming a correlation that may not exist.

YCHTT thank you for confirming. i am not using this as an excuse to keep the online symbol. I stated this because it is a down side of the online symbol. unfortunately i cannot stop assuming this, it has become a natural correlation for me that will continue for as long as the online symbol is there.

Whoops wrong thread
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So just over 80% of responders support the removal of the logged-on symbol, while 70% support the removal of the orders-received display as an option during game creation.

I think that that Oli can go ahead and make the changes when he gets the time to do so.