If you win first, you have 100 with 25 invested in a game, which you will lose giving you 100 .

If you lose first, you will regain your 25 giving you 75 plus 50 winnings giving you 125 .

Therefore it's best to forfeit your position, which is something most Diplomacy players wouldn't approve of, or to hold off winning in the higher stakes game.

No.

The purpose of getting more points is to allow you to play more or higher quality games. Adversely impacting your games in order to gather more points is therefore self defeating.

It's a bit like committing suicide in order to avoid paying tax. It may well work, but in the final analysis you're worse off.

We disagree on the purpose of getting more points. I see points as being a reward in themself, as well as the rankings provided by the points. The purpose of higher stake games is to earn more points.

I thought points were supposed to assure those with more points were better quality players. If you can forfeit a position, then you have proven yourself to be a lesser quality player and any who would forfeit for any reason is someone I want no part of. A quality player is not necessarily one who wins a lot (though that certainly helps ones standing) but the most important factor is a player who is dedicated to doing as well as he can and one who takes the game seriously. Any who bail on a game once a win is out of the question is a HORRIBLE player who should be shunned by all!

If you feel points are the reward in themselves, you are an egomaniac who cares only about yourself and not about the others in your games, quality of play means NOTHING to this type of person and the whole points system is bastardized.

and checking this persons stats
he has abandoned almost a third of his games, his reliability is in the toilet, even if he HAD points, I would not play an any game he played in!

Thanks for contributing to this debate, fuck you too.

While I agree with Tom, I can't agree with the way he states it. The highest quality player is the one who commits himself to his games, win or lose.

But the OP's analysis only works if losing the game gives the player a total of less than 100 , so this only works for new players or players who went all in and Los trying to get a quick boost and even them they need to be in just the right circumstances for it to happen. So it is really a non-issue.

If you're trying to game the system like this and can't get above 100 quick enough so that this doesn't even apply to you anymore, you're doing it wrong.

Quality is not determined right away and takes time to prove itself, even discussing how you can rapidly gain the most points demonstrates a lack of knowing what is or is not a quality player! Quality is developed and proven over time not by points accumulated. If you play a while and your play well (and dedicated) long enough, no doubt your point total will reflect your quality of play so points can certainly be one small indication of quality but this desire to game the system for as many points as possible while ruining the games you can no longer win do NOTHING to prove you a good player and in fact do the exact opposite. Synapse can be mad and he can swear at me for pointing out his be a total douche (almost a third of his games have been dropped out of, his reliability is under 50, now he wants to prove himself by discussing how dropping out of games can actually prove his worthiness???? He stated in his own words that points are all that matters and gaining points mean more than anything else. Yes, you can swear at me all you like but you have proven yourself and can not blame me for your being a complete tool!

"Quality is developed and proven over time not by points accumulated."

Take your esoteric crap elsewhere, points and ranks and titles and badges are all that matters not your misguided sense of honour.

"now he wants to prove himself by discussing how dropping out of games can actually prove his worthiness???"

Proof that I'm arguing against a mega troll, nothing in my post was about worthiness it was rather about numerical points. Sounds like I really ticked you off by referring to the website rules and structure as opposed to your warped sense of diplo-morality. Let me guess you are a quality player based on your 1 game played. Lol loser.

Just for clarification:
What do you mean by "forfeiting your position of 25 to get the 25 back more quickly", because the points are given at the end of the game. So even if you get defeated in your game, you will be given your points only at the end of the game (if you are below 100). If your country goes in CD and someone takes over you do not get your points back even if you are below 100.

PS: Please everybody keep this discussion civil (no matter who started first).

If you decide not to hold your units Oli, so you lose quicker to regain your 25 before you win the 50. Or to lose on purpose.

Yes, losing on purpose makes you look like a stand-up guy!
And again, you show your warped sense of sensibility when you state over and over that the only thing that matters is points, ranks and badges. No, you can not be further from the truth, Points, ranks and badges only have meaning when done while playing with honor.
How is it "desireable" to have these things if the games suck? If everyone were to play a few turns, realize they were not going to win and drop out or give up? Maybe a player has "won" but what has he really won if the "desired" outcome is simply to gain points and the games quality suffered terribly? If this is the attitude here, if any others think this way, I would suggest doing away with these things as they are only rewarding bad behavior.

You ask me to be civil. I can do that but why would we even WANT to be civil to any who suggest this is desired behavior? Why do we care the least about someone who has demonstrated he simply does not care about a quality game and cares less about making a game enjoyable to all, this person only cares about himself and his precious points (that he has almost none of)
Just look at this guys stats
He has won two games! -But both were two player games
He has lost 39% of the time
He has been eliminated from EVERY game played with more than 6 powers
5 games abandoned out of 15 (a full third!)
29 NMRs out of only 559 phases

Why are we listening to this guy? Why do we care what he thinks?
Why be civil when he simply wishes to stoke the fires by making such outlandish claims? The better question is why is he allowed to play at all?

SYnapse, you never fail to amaze me. You seem to have a unique ability to seek out amusing new ways to make yourself look like an idiot.

Why does this question even matter? If you're in a winning position in games, you should be able to acquire more than 100 quick enough that this doesn't even matter.

Besides, losing on purpose is an awful thing to do

"why is he allowed to play at all"

lol, because this site isn't a Spartan society in which only the most honourable are allowed to exist. And a measure of skill is only win%, draw% and points. None of your opinions matter Tomaha.

"a measure of skill is only win%, draw% and points"

Then by your own measure, you're a really poor player. You have 6 , and a really low win% and draw%.

You won't improve either of those percentages by losing games on purpose, either.

I didn't mention myself anywhere, just a hypothetical situation, it was Tomaha who made this personal.

You are literally the creator of the thread. Were you asking on behalf of a friend or client?

You create a thread, you invite attention to yourself. Simple.

I was asking about a hypothetical situation which I thought of, then was subjected to a bunch of ad hominem attacks based on my stats.

I abandoned a couple of games in the World Map over a year ago because I didn't realise those games go on for six months. Unlike some neckbeards I actually can't log on every day for months at a time, I have children and other commitments.

Thanks for pointing out I have 6 Jamiet, because it's totally a offense to invest your points in games instead of storing them in the bank. And Tomaha is ridiculous seen as he's never won a game and only ever played one game. What a hoard of experience we should all draw upon.

You're both pathetic and this forum's quality is rapidly decreasing as you bring over the webdip style of conversation. Read this thread through again and tell me where I invited this personal debate about my stats. Jamiet I know that you enjoy harassing me because of webdip and the diprepublic but it's against vdip rules to bring that over here, so grow the fuck up.

The only person swearing and shouting in this thread is you, SYnapse.

The most important thing for having a good game of Diplomacy is having reliable players. That should be encouraged above all else.

You were the one who made a claim that the only measure of skill is a measure against which you measure up really, really badly. I have every right to comment on that.

(^ to SYnapse)

It's not possible to shout in a thread, moron.

oh im sorry your right i take back everything i ever said because clearly i am foolish and you are the cleverest man that ever lived. thank you for pointing out what a moron i am and now that you have done so i will learn my place and show you proper deference in future as you are obviously my moral and intellectual superior. i am going to go and drink some milk now and eat a cookie if my mom will let me have one but if she says i am too much of a moron to be allowed cookies i will try not to cry. thank you syNAPSE

+1 zurn

Sticking in games until the death rattle should be the aim of all players, right!
The RR, win, lose and Draw give an insight to the character of your fellow players.

don't be to harsh RL gets us all ;)

Real life does get us all, I have one missed phase myself and I am honestly not very proud of it. I feel like it's a smear on my record. That's one missed phase out of many and I am embarrassed by it! (as I should be)
Then we have some clown come around who claims the only thing that matters is his own points, rank and awards. He openly suggests people should bail on games and throw in the towel when the going gets tough. To all the rest who are playing the game, he goes and ruins it and has zero remorse saying his stats are all that matters. That sort of person should be expelled.

And it's quite funny how he brings up records
His record is limited but already shows he is VERY unreliable dropping from 5 games (yet he points out he dropped a "couple" world games), it shows a crap load of NMR's and it shows he prefers games with fewer players (so he can try and gain more wins no doubt?).
Then he points out MY record. Yes, I have played a whole ONE game here.
But in that one game I was the leader when it went to a draw and I had only that one missed phase out of several hundred. My limited play here has shown me to be reliable. You don't know if I'm any good, that's fair enough (though I did finish at the top of that draw) but RELIABILITY is what we are talking about being all-important, something you state doesn't mean anything as you strive to collect personal accomplishments as you destroy game after game after game. And since you brought it up, your statement about my "hoard of experience" ummmm, you REALLY don't know what you are talking about do you? If you want to base your statement on my stats here alone without looking any further, then you show yourself to be incredibly ignorant pal.

Synapse you have been silenced for one week for failing to follow oli's very specific and simple request.

Ok now back to the point at hand which I think is really important,

Is it the case that points and rankings are a sign of a players skill or is it their NMR % or simply the opinions of the vDiplomacy forum. If it is the case that points exist only to buy into better games, why have points at all instead of just awarding ranks to players that are deemed "acceptable" by the community? Why chastise players for playing to survive in PPSC when they should fight to the end, only to receive a hail of abuse on the forum for their defeat ratio ("The RR, win, lose and Draw give an insight to the character of your fellow players")? What is the point of this game, to win or to impress the members of the forum to gain more +1s, and ultimately to stop getting dragged into ad hominem slinging matches until an admin intervenes on your behalf because you are the one with a higher community reputation regardless of right and wrong?

Your goal should not be points but rather playing a tough fought game. You should always fight it out and never ever bail on a game. If you play this way, the points will follow, your reliability will follow, respect for you as a player will follow. Points alone mean nothing if you have a poor reliability, they mean little if it is discovered you play only for points and you disregard the integrity of the game itself as others will simply chose to not play with such a self centered egotistic person.

If you care about your image, then it is a blend of everything, focusing on only one aspect (points) results in a poor image. If you do care about image (I am not saying you do not) then work hard at improving your reliability and stop dropping out of games (and dropping out also includes games you have given up on even though you may be "phoning in" orders) fight in every game and you will find more support for that image you want to cultivate!

what is more important?
It is ALL important and you can not focus on only one aspect, you need balance to be respected as a good player.

You see, I completely disagree with you from a realist perspective. What does your opinion matter to me, if you have 100 and I have 5000? What does playing a tough fought game mean if you lose? What is respect, and how does that fall into the goal of a game which is to win?

You talk of Diplomacy as though it's some mystical martial art or route to enlightenment. It is a game, a competitive game, of which the goal is to beat the other players. And that is marked by the amount of wins and the points which you carry.

You want points for what reason? You said yourself it is a reflection of one's skill. It then follows you care about your perceived image of being a skillful player. If so (and you have painted this as your position) then your failure to accept what we all say we value as a good player doesn't matter will never position your image as being skillful. If you refuse to accept others opinions as to what constitutes a good player then why are you asking us?

If points are all that matters to you (and you have stated this is your position) then our opinions mean nothing and you will be happy being considered a selfish person who cares only about point whoring and you will never be respected no matter how many points you accrue. If you ask our opinions then you can't simply dismiss everything stated to the contrary, if you CARE, then you need to listen, if you don't care, then why pose the question unless of course you are simply trolling (and I suspect this to be the case)

and you say this is a competitive game, how is it competitive if you drop once the going gets tough? You point out the best way to maximize points includes baling from games, ruining the fun others are having and you then want us to respect your supposed accomplishments? That aint ever going to happen with your attitude.

Synapse, you're focusing on the the wrong units, D-points.
We have a fairly better "ranking" system here, called V-points. There's no such thing as the "points refund below 100" with V-points, so you don't need to wonder those weird questions.
Just play each game for the best and never give up.
Plain simple.

vPoints: http://vdiplomacy.com/hof.php
dPoints: http://vdiplomacy.com/halloffame.php

How can we see our vPoints if we aren't HoF, anyway?

As for OP, I personally don't believe dPoints are a good indicator of skill and playing simply for points is a pointless endeavor. Stats are my preferred measure of ranking player competence.

I think there was some url you could use to get anyone's vPoints (similar to ELO rating?), but I didn't save it...

Oh, here it is:

http://vdiplomacy.com/hof.php?userID=XXXX

Replace the X's with your userid.

and some info: http://www.vdiplomacy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Rating

There should be a listing of our HOF score and position with a link to our details page on our profile.

That'd be nice.

Just read over the way Oli does the scores. Nice. I like it much better than WebDip's (no slam on WebDip, just like vDip's better) as it takes into account each matchup in the game.