Oh Mr. Pot, please tell us how we can make it bad enough that you will leave. Maybe the Marine Corps Reserve will take you, and you can stop lying about your military service.

I need not prove my service to you. If you can't respect a Mrine as a Marine, then you can quite simply be muted. So gratz. You're number two on my mute list. Even maple isn't on it here.

There's always Fog of War...

Personally I'd prefer if the save/ready options displayed to other people were universally like that variants. It basically just shows total # of people saved, total # of people ready - but you have no idea of who they are. Then again, you also can't see the "last logged in" time there either. That'd be the perfect combo imo if it was across the board.

I am very happy to be muted by the likes of a fool who would stoop so low as to masquerade as a veteran. I have no idea what your reference to mapleleaf is supposed to mean, but at least that guy makes an effort to play Dip, and any eccentricities that come from him are tied to his passion for the game. THAT I can respect. You, sir, are a worthless sack of lying crap. You are beneath all contempt..

Methinks i am number one on his mute list. But all i speak of is game integrity. Some simply wish to pad stats at the cost of integrity then the promote themselves as being good players when they could not be further from good. These examples of why this is useful are mostly manufactured reasons that are not used. They simply wish to take advantage. Dont people prefer to win a hard fought battle and dont they dispize games that became easy due to nmrs and the like? Rven if i were the beneficiary of this. The game means so much less.

And muting people is somewhat childish as is resorting to the f bombs. Why listen to a petulant child?

No tom, you aren't muted. If one 'fuck' offends, then so be it. I only muted that shit head for his personal attacks. I personally attacked no one.

And I actually agree with your view if not how you present it most of the time. I think the idea of trying to exploit the refill is stupid and childish and of no real concern as it can only happen under very certain circumstances one time.

Likewise, the logged on symbol and who has posted orders is ripe for abuse.

i havent read anything but the description, hopefully someone has mentioned it by now, i really like when i am playing a non anon game and your allies are online because you know you should get a quick response

That has been mentioned as a plus of the online. I think in anon games, implementing the full fog of war as far as who has placed orders and who is online would be good while in non-anon, allowing you to see them as online but still hiding who has placed orders would be a good compromise.

But even the example given ...showing your allies being on line is not as useful as some think (or it could only be one of those pretend reasons given because they prefer to take advantage of the situation)
You can see an ally online but he could have recently left the site, the logged on light is not immediate without actually logging out (how many of us log out after each visit?) and what if they stopped in for a moment only with no time to discuss things? This light only leads you to think you are being ignored when it can not be farther from the truth?

Or they could use a phone like I do and appear to be on all the time when, in fact, they aren't.

To be fair though, in a face to face game, you can also tell who has submitted orders and if anyone is scrambling to meet the deadline. So its not really all that different. The major difference is NMR's are way less common in face to face games, and are harder to respond to.

One advantage of being able to tell when people are online/have ordered is if it looks like someone is going to NMR or CD you can contact the mods in advance for a pause so you can get the player in question subbed out if need be.

There is a certain level of abuse that can occur though when it comes to NMRing players.

"you can also tell who has submitted orders and if anyone is scrambling to meet the deadline" maybe, maybe not... A secret box may have orders submitted when you weren't looking.

and in FTF an NMR is just so incredibly rare, it's statistically near zero percent of the time and not worth mentioning. Asking for a pause minutes before a deadline??? Again, that simply isn't going to happen.
First off, I doubt it would granted
It is probably not going to be timed right
and I know too many who wait to the last minute, making such pauses all the more unlikely. This pause suggestion is again statistically near zero (if not absolute zero, has this ever happened?)

@ Damian: Actually you cannot tell with any degree of real accuracy who has orders submitted in a FTF game because a player can put a blank piece of paper in the hat and then write orders to be deposited at the deadline. As for asking the mods to interrupt an NMR, that's not really a best practice in the first place because interruptions like that cause delays that do far more damage than NMRs do. Additionally there are many players who intentionally hold their orders into the last minute of the deadline as a deceptive ploy. Some players are diplomatically active, but choose not to enter orders and they have a finalized set. I typically wait and exhaust all possible diplomatic time provide to conduct negotiations, and then rip off a set of orders based upon all discussions with all players. As Tommy knows from our PBEM experience together where he was the GM and orders collector many players play using this style. Anyone watch a game that I'm in would assume that I am NMRing every season, and the moderators would get exhausted asking me if I'm planning to submit orders.

The reality is that there's no benefit to players knowing if orders are in, saved, or final. You should always play with the assumption that all players will submit orders, and removing that feature would reduce the number of predatory NMR exploitations and the overall effects of missed phases.

There's just no positive value in presenting this information. The only advantage in it is allowing shrewd players with spare time to stalk the order submission status to potentially exploit NMRs. I've got nothing against those who do it. It's within the rules, and it's public information available to everyone. My complaint is with the site for enabling it. Likewise there's no added value in presenting a player's online status. As many have noted, you appear online it you leave you phone app open, or walk away form your computer overnight without logging off the site. This leaves people thinking that YCHTT is some kind of sleep-deprived troll who stays perpetually logged into the site. He probably falls asleep for 20 minutes or so per day between rants about his banishment from Web Dip and fabricated stories of his Marine Corps career.

Lol you very nearly went an entire long post without ragging on anyone.

I NEVER log off myself, couldn't be bothered and hate having to log back on!
And yes, I can attest to what Ruff says above, I have GM'ed human adjudicated game where he was playing and he was often sending in orders at the deadline or sometimes even past (you can get away with it in human judged games but risk waiting past that [point of absolute non-acceptance). I have seen MANY here in my short time who send in orders at the last moment as part of their strategy as well.

The benefits are so incredibly limited
And while yes this is "legal" to do this, it is not really "fair" in how it can help one area and not another. That in itself is unfair

I'm with Tom here, I very rarely am logged off. I can't stand having to log back on every time I want to check my games. This has caused some players, I won't name names, to accuse me of purposely not replying to messages and in turn to my being attacked at times because of it. So I also am in favor of getting rid of the dots that show you on line.
As for the orders buttons you could do away with those as well, as they usually just turn into an argument between those who click save and ready.

I must confess, because of the personal attacks at the start of the discussion I did not follow this thread for quite some time...
But at the moment the arguments are quite strong to remove this information (at least the online-sign), and I'm very tempted to do so (esp. as this code already exits). If there are valid/strong arguments to keep them please speak up now.

while I support getting rid of the indicator, there were a few points made in support of having this. I would (and did) argue these reasons were limited at best and simply manufactured for some others.

To recap those reasons to allow:
*Some like to know who is currently on line so they write those people first
...but it has been pointed out the indicator is not immediate as well as many if not most do not log out each time. It also leads to some feeling they are being ignored when this is not the case, maybe they stopped in for a moment only, maybe they plan on writing when they have more time?

*It allows instant chat dialog
...but if your messages are responded to, bingo, you can instant chat. And in-game messages vs chat, the difference is minimal at best (and I see zero difference myself)

*some claim it is not unfair since it is available to all so why change?
...yet it helps some areas and not others, therefore IS unfair

*we can contact our partners if they show orders are still due
...made up reason! This would rarely if ever happen and does not change the likelihood of the NMR about to happen. If a player is not sending his orders, ten an in-game message means nothing! He can see it himself that his orders are due!

*you know if a player is online, he may reply to your message and you may wait, otherwise you will check back later.
,,,a decent reason to allow but minor at best, especially because it is not accurate based on when/if these others log out or not.

*You can contact the mods and ask for an extension
...another made up reason. I doubt any has ever attempted this and if they had, it would simply HAVE to be ignored since so many wait until the last moment to send in orders.

I think that the removal of the logged-in symbol along with 'FoW' style order recording would be a great step forward.

I'd like to see the orders entered indicators stay.

Mapu, I guess I don't mind if the orders indicators stay, though I don't see the reason to know if someone has placed his orders or not. Everyone I think may be guilty of attacking someone whom he see's hasn't placed his orders.

If people are irresponsible enough to miss turns, they deserve to be punished for it.

I see the orders entered status simply as a method to take advantage of the system and again, give an advantage to some over others. There is ZERO reason to have this other than to try and take advantage, even Mapu's reason... "They deserve to be punished"
Meaning the person who punishes gets a further advantage and the punishment results in throwing off an otherwise unbalanced game even further, this additional punishment harms the game for everyone! No, he does not want to teach anyone a lesson, he wants to prey on those and gain any advantage he can, win at any cost even when it harms game play for all others.

NMR's are not illegal. They are part of the game. If people miss turns, than I, as a reliable player, have every right to take advantage of them. You should blame the NMR person, not the person kicking their butt.

I should add that if people miss turns in the beginning of games on smaller maps, I am more than happy to cancel or do whatever the others want to do. But if the game presents me with a fuck-up for a neighbor, then they are going down. It's part of the game. Unreliable players make poor allies, so the sooner they are out, the better.

I'm sure they will tolerate a missed stitch at knitting club so you can join one of those.

"No, he does not want to teach anyone a lesson, he wants to prey on those and gain any advantage he can, win at any cost even when it harms game play for all others."

Have you ever read the cover of the rulebook? The game is about finding any advantage you can. It doesn't harm the game. It *is* the game.