what does eog mean?

eog stands for End of Game reports. Your comments on a finished game

oic. thx!

@Decimo - France CDed in F1906. At this time he had unit in BUR and all his other untis were South or East of Iberia and Marseilles. The position I gained by end 1906 was by vitue of France's in-game decisions to leave his homeland undefended. The position I had was such that regardless of what happened I would have been able to take and hold Iberia - there was no time for a disbanding France to get there and Italy was too small and Turkey was too far away.

As such, the game in my mind was substantially complete. Turkey had an opportuntiy to set a stalemate in the East. However, they were unable to do so and I managed to get WAR. WAR was my 18th centre whether France stayed or not.

I am somewhat annoyed that you are complaining about this. I wasn't about to draw a game we had each played 6 years of. Furthermore, had France not CDed you would have still been in a defeat/survive position so what grounds do you have to complain at all. Had France not CDed I would have won the game regardless. I don't really see how you can argue otherwise.

If a game is ruined in early stages by a CD I will always offer to cancel. I will almost never vote draw. I did not see your cancel votes so I did not even consider it. If a player CDs late in the game, I don't realy think the game needs to be cancelled. france made a douche-bag move by leaving, but I stabbed him, he got pissed and left. Canceling these games, which is the only outcome I would have considered, would just reward these assholes and encourage them to keep this terrible behaviour.

Do you really and honestly think that you were "owed" a draw in that game? it seems somewhat ridiculous to me that you feel so entitled. You lose a game and then the endgame something unusual happens and you have the audacity to call me out saying that I should have rewardded you by drawing. I honestly wonder wha kind of bullshit logic you're using here. Sure, maybe my worth has gone down in your books. But a player who is exhibiting the sore-loserish, holier-than-thou and downright spoiled attitude that you are is a player who's opinion is not something I can care about.

I am not asserting that you have stolen your victory, Jimbo.
You’re a good player, despite your bad character: what’s wrong with you? I didn’t fill my post with personal insults and I am not going to follow your example.
My position is not : “you’ve won only because France CDed.”
My position is: “Had France not CDed, we should’ve been able to stop your solo”

The timing of France’s Civil Disorder is not my opinion neither is yours:
“
- Spring, 1906: GameMaster: NMR from France. Send the country in CD.”
- Spring, 1906: GameMaster: Missing orders for Spring, 1906 (Retreats) from a country with 2 or more SCs. Extending phase.The game will continue after this phase even if you do not find a replacement.
“
Then penguin has self taken over his own position without entering Belgium & Burgundy retreats order, leaving the board totally skewed.
So, the key point is: had penguin not CD, you should’ve never had Marseilles. 17 SCs even without Russia alive.
Or, in this case, the proper words would be “had penguin played the game or had anyone with a brain be allowed to take over penguin’s position, England should’ve never had Marseilles. 17 SCs even without Russia alive.”
I accept a “draw” of any size before a “survive”. Even together with a 1 SC France.
And Turkey’s moves demonstrate that he has my same opinion on the matter…
…but nobody has ever been allowed to take over France’s position, cause penguin continuously CDed and immediately took over his own position. So, officially, there was never a France open position after spring 1906 before the very end.

Right, the self-take over, do you recall http://www.vdiplomacy.com/forum.php?viewthread=37458#37458 ?
Well, this is one of those despicable examples.

I do not cancel games. Expecially after the first couple years of play. As you said, a cancelled game erases the data and is a favour to an asshole 95% of times.
I want to know who are the players that ruin my games. So if there’s room enough for a draw I put my draw vote, else I put my concede vote. This is my policy.
penguin has just been added to my “blocked players list”.
You are definitely not there, Jimbo, but if you find my posts intolerable feel free to add me in your “blocked players list”.

I do not find your posts intolerable. Despite how you intended it to be your post was insulting and directed at me. I responded in a way that I believe that I was addressed.

Your posts concludes with my own point - penguin screwed that all up. Whether he NMRed or CDed or whatever, he played a very poor game and allowed me to win. He entered the game to make no orders over and over, this is no different than him playing the way he was and just doing nothing about me and fighting in Italy. It is all the same.

I still do not think it was right of your to take your frustrations out on me in your intial message as you did.

I apologize for getting the season of the CD incorrect, I just estimated based on the maps not the messages.

Also, its too bad players have opinions about draws and cancels. I usually can agree to draw a game in the first 3 years, but thereafter, I tend to not draw games unless there is a stalemate. This can and does cause me to lose sometimes, as other players will often "gang up" on the player not voting. It is my opinion that many players on this site are afriad to play games through, that people do not value a solo victory. This is something I find frustrating (case in point the chaos game that just ended in a pathetic 11 way draw or something).

Yeah, good point Jimbozig. I agree that games should be played until there is either a solo or a stalemate (where players are either bumping heads repeatedly, or there is no doubt that any of the players can achieve the supply centers necessary for victory). Too often I see players agreeing to draw because they won't consider attacking someone who was an ally for a portion of the game, when at least one of the players still had a realistic shot to solo.

To each his own, yes? If everyone agrees to a draw, then what's the problem? I do applaud Jimbozig's perspective, playing on until there is no chance of a solo even if it causes the rest of the players to gang up on him. I understand that style of play, just as I understand the mindset of players who enjoy keeping alliances until the end and drawing with allies even though a stab would result in a solo. Again, if someone objects to a draw, they don't have to vote for it. I think both styles are prevalent enough here to be expected in any given game. One could avoid this perhaps by creating games specifically stating that draws will only be agreed upon for certain conditions.

As for this particular game, well I wasn't around long enough to witness France's CD and its effect, so I don't really have any input. Thanks Decima for the comment, maybe a Lepanto would have changed the outcome, at least for me, but so it goes!

Jimbo, Dr.Recommended, G-Man,

we all agree that a game affected by CD is supposed to go on until a draw or a solo.

We all agree to the fact that if there’s a player to be blamed about gameID=11253 this player is penguin, not Jimbozig.

The problem of this particular game was that a France “de facto” in Civil Disorder from 1906 made it impossible to react in the western front. A stalemate line could’ve been built with a certain ease together with any “playing french player”, being him penguin or someone new.
Jimbo won, fair enough, I am not losing sleep over it, but the western front and in particular the 18th SC Marseilles was guaranteed by France “de facto” Civil Disorder status (and by France’s impossibility to be taken over by a different player, cause, as I said, penguin had continuously left and taken over).
After England’s attack on France the situation was serious but not unrecoverable… if only we had the chance to have an active player. I know of several committed players on the website who constantly search for playable open positions on the Open Games page. If I were off the game, I would have certainly assessed the chance of taking over France during S06 retreats, maybe even after BUR disbanded, before Marseilles loss because of:
- low price of take over
- impossible to get a “win”, but impossible to get a “defeat” too
- tangible chance to get a “draw” (way or 5way with Russia)
- possible chance to get a “survive”
Unfortunately this chance has never been available to other players than penguin.

This said as a technical analysis debating Jimbo’s assertion “Had France not CDed I would have won the game regardless”.
I don’t think so.
Had France not CDed or had anyone else been able to take over France, there was room enough for a draw through a stalemate line including Marseilles & West Med. Sea.

So, definitely, the reason why I started this thread is not having a conflict with you, Jimbo; I am not here to debate whether your victory is legitimate or not. This argument is strongly subjective and not even interesting for the rest of the vDip community.

The reason is: why the hell do we allow the self-take over??

If userID=1234 goes in Civil Disorder, the cause is:
1) userID=1234 doesn’t care about the game anymore.
2) userID=1234 asked for a pause/extend but other players didn’t grant that.
3) userID=1234 didn’t ask for a pause/extend when he was aware of being in need of.
4) An unpredictable issue kept userID=1234 away from logging in.

Respectively, the answer I’d give to those cases are:
1) If userID=1234 doesn’t care about the game he’s not supposed to occupy a place that others could fit better in.
2) userID=1234 is encouraged to ask (or better should ask) for Mods intervention, since pause&extend are not diplomatic tools and not granting them is both poor behaviour and off-policy of this website.
3) There’s no paradise for stupids. Also, this could be addressed to cause #1.
4) We all have a real life. It is our responsibility to use the best fitting time pace for the games we create or join… and the frankness of cause #4 is highly overrated, though.

Obviously, the current case gameID=11253, as the great majority of cases, belongs to cause #1.

Concluding my analysis of the problem, if you feel this as a problem, I can't see why allowing a player to take over his own abandoned position can benefit the vDip games. By the way, currently this take over is for free in terms of points and in terms of RR penality .

Perhaps charging them the points required to take over the position is worthwhile.

I will admit that I have missed phases in the past. I believe there may have been a time or more where I have lost my position in a game due to CD and then was able to reclaim it and finish the game. Likely what happened was reason 2 or 3 - I needed an extend or my phone ran out of batteries while I was out of town or something or whatever. Either way, it would have been accidental. Something I am trying to avoid better now.

Regardless, my point is that upon my return I logged into the site and was simply able to continue my game depsite missing a couple turns. The beenfit of that was that the other players were able to play against me and not a CDed nation. If I was not able to "self-takeover" whether or not someone would have taken over the spot is unknown. As such, there may be occasions when the self-takeover improves the game.

@Decimo - I apologize if I was overly rude in my previous posts. I am happy we have managed to move past it.

@ Decima Legion: I agree with you on a penalty for players re-taking over their abandoned countries. Re. France: How is Penguin's play any different from the vindictive player or the loyal player who will help the opponent solo even when passing up a sure draw to do so?

His play is different because he gave up. The players you describe remain engaged in the game through to the very end, which is certainly all we can expect. While had penguin been forced to remain engaged he may have done what you describe, or he may not have, regardless, a player who quits is the worst type.

I agree. I just don't think you can entirely avoid the types of players who will thumb their nose at a draw, whether it's out of revenge, loyalty, or just purely bad play.

But I don`t think Decimo is complaining about players who opt for that, just players who quit and give up. The `self-takeover` as he calls it.

Yeah, and I agree with him. There should be penalties against this that grow progressively more severe the more you abandon your country. My additional point is that even these penalties will never be able to entirely stop illogical or bad play, as well as severe revenge and loyalty at the expense of a draw play, that changes the course of games.

...what I called "self-takeover" is even worse of a simple CD: not only the player quits and give up, but he doesn't allow a new one to succeed in command, because the previous players takes over his own position, remainig around for the entire game without participating actively to the game.

I don't even know if in this case penguin was even aware of what he was doing.
I have no direct experience of Civil Disorder, but in that case I assume that you simply have to re-open the game page in order to let the software consider you in-game again.

At present there’s a RR drop due to CD and a RR boost due to take over. I am suspecting that many players do this in order to annihilate the RR drop and its limitations.

does the RR boost come through on self takeovers?

Also out of curiousitty, have you ever taken over another players cd poaition?

Since it's a takeover I assume it does boost (at least it pulls down the "unbalanced CD" number).

Of course I had.

Once I asked Oli about it and he basically told me: "if you take over your own Country, this DOESN'T balance your CDs, while any CD increases the count. So, if you're unlucky enough and you CD 3 times in the same game, your RR will be cut by a 30%"
Yes, he said "unlucky". :)

But personally I have never tested it, for several reasons: I use to play games with RR restrictions and the players are usually reliable. So, the only time I had a player with multiple CD in the same game, I couldn't check what happened to his "unbalanced CDs" count, each time he did one, because the game was Anon. However, at the end of the game I noticed that his RR was disasterful.

@all
There’s some confusion: my nickname is Decima Legio.
It's not that difficult. It's latin.
If you can't spell it you can always use Ctrl+C & Ctrl+v, or use the shortcut DL.
Well, nevermind.

“Regardless, my point is that upon my return I logged into the site and was simply able to continue my game depsite missing a couple turns.”
Ok Jimbo, it looks like it’s apparently simpler than what I assumed it to be: so when you’re in CD you’re considered in-game again without opening the game link, just logging in the site… if someone else didn’t take over before your next log-in, of course.

I admit that am too restrictive.
I may concede that the self-takeover should not necessarily be forbidden (only because of saving that small % of worthy cases belonging to a frank cause #4, not to an excuse cause #4, but obviously we can’t discern them and we don’t even want to analyse the personal details of cause #4).

But in this case I strongly recommend that:
- the user in CD needs to be aware that he is actually taking over. You need to re-join by opening a game link, not simply by logging in the website. In the latter hypothesis some users may be paradoxically forced to play a game they don’t want to play anymore. It’s important to notice that the latter is a backfiring effect on the game.
- The cost of self-takeover must be greater than zero. Now it’s for free. We have to recognize that a Civil Disorder is in any case a harm to the game process and to the other committed users.
- I don’t know if Guaroz got the right information about “unbalanced CD” mechanism. Personally I don’t care whether CDs are balanced or not through self-takeover if the previous two points will be addressed.

bump
in order to satisfy your curiosity Jimbo:
gameID=4138 is a game I took over... later on you destroyed me, too bad!

I remember that game well, I quite enjoyed it. Great alliance with God.

I do not take over CDed positions very often. I will try and do it more often in future.