This is an an absolutely amazing game/variant. If you get a chance to play it, you will have the most fun that you've ever had playing Diplomacy.

Would you be interested Ruffhaus? I don't know how many people we'll find for it (as it would have to be done via email offsite), but perhaps we could test it with a smaller group first?

I would be interested once I read and understood all the rules, looks like Ruffhaus wrote it.

The difficulty with getting a game like this going has been finding someone to GM it. All of the Explore! games to date have been played with a human GM who hand-adjudicates, and draws individual maps for each player every turn. It's a painstaking process, but even the GM has a blast doing it. If it could be adapted for WebDiplomacy that would be awesome.

The chief challenges would be:

*adapting the fog of war coding to the Explore! format
*which maps to use, since Explore uses a randomly created/unique map each time, the design of which is very complex to assure playability and balance while maintaining an unknown geography.
*adparting a method of allowign players to name their aquired territories and cities
*assigning new unit order types to the drop down menu to cover uprades to cities and units
*finding a way to disclose player contact information, once you meet them in the game.

We once played a game with *two* GMs because the map was so large. It was called Hemispheres, and each GM controlled one of two connected globes.

Yeah I saw the Hemispheres adaptation for large maps. It seems an even more epic version of regular Explore!

I doubt there's going to be a push to modify vdip to add all those options in. If I remember correctly, people have asked for third unit types before, and Oli has said 2 only. Wouldn't upgraded cities/units be "new" unit types?

As far as hand adjudication, I'd be willing to GM (only fair since I suggested it), however, I would definitely need help with map design and creating maps. It's somewhat of a weak point for me.

in essence you are taking a computer game which has the power of processing chips and doing it by hand, understand the complexity of it, but it does look like a lot of fun if we could swing it.

I would join, once I've read the rules completely...
I haven't found how many players it takes though, or is that random?

Ruffhaus, there used to be a handy software tool, I think called paintworks, we used to use for maps, is there any such software out there now, you know of?

I didn't. The creator is a guy named Tom Reinicker. The only drawback of the Explore! game is that in order to accomeodate the massive work load ont he GMs the victory conditions have always been set so low, that the game is declared over before anyone truly wins anything. It's very similar to setting a WW4 game here to 25 centers for a solo. However, maybe if we could figure out how to create a collection of maps adaptable for the variant, it could be palyed here. I'd like to hear from some folk familiar with writing the codes as to how complex these rules would be to write. I could probably contact the previous Explore! GMs and collect their base maps. That way when you signed up for an Explore game it might be any one one of six or seven maps, and you wouldn't really know much about it like you would if we played it on a current Diplomacy map. The critical part of this variant to capture is the exploring element

steephie -

It's as many players as want to play. The map is adapted for however many want to play.

The only problem with collecting maps Ruffhaus is that after playing once or twice, you risk playing the same map and knowing a lot about it. It wouldn't have much long-term playability unless people continually made new maps.

Ruffhaus,
Is this something we could use for continuing a random map for continuous play?

http://www.inkwellideas.com/roleplaying_tools/random_city/

Unfortunately DEFIANT, the maps have to be somewhat balanced, meaning it will require a GM to make sure things aren't too badly skewed. From what I've seen, purely random maps would be a poor idea. Although, I suppose some sort of random landmass would work out, with borders and SCs fit in later for balance.

just an idea to help if it can.

I would be interested in trying this out. It looks awesome!

Awesome, good response so far.

We have:

Drano
Ruffhaus (?)
DEFIANT
Steephie
Ninjanrd

What we really need is someone good with creating maps to help us out. Perhaps I should give airborne a PM.

Bump. Any more interested folks? I'm hoping to get an approximate number of people who might be interested before delving further into this.

I'm in

Count me in as well - always willing to try something new and an unknown map sounds like definitely something a little bit different.

I'd be up for it - sounds very interesting :)

I can't commit to playing anytime in the next several weeks, but I give three thumbs up to the idea. I'd love to try it.

Fantastic! Glad to see such a high response! That said, I've received an anonymous PM reminding me that part of the fun of Explore! Diplomacy is that you don't know who, or how many, other people are playing! And so with that, I'll ask that interested parties please PM me in the future. I will be getting back to those interested as I find out more information about implementing a map.

Anyone who is good with MS Paint, or any other potential map making software, please PM me!

Interested as well, and I have some experience with graph theory and networks from my thesis work that I could put toward trying to develop a semi random map generator that meets certain basic balance requirements. It sounds like that would reduce one major component of the GM's work, no?

One caveat: I can't commit very much time on this until after my thesis defense here in a month or so.

Leif -

A map generator that does what you mention would be a HUGE help to any future GM. The major areas of GM work are the map creation, and then the division of the full map into individual maps for each player based on what they can see. Any program that would allow the GM to input a number of players and somewhat skip the map creation part would be a huge help.

If it went further and allowed the GM to "black out" certain areas of the map in order to create individual maps, that would be amazing. That would allow most anyone to GM as it would extremely simplify the work needed.

If it's not automated I would still really prefer high (something similar to half the SCs +1 in normal diplomacy...) victory conditions, so maybe it's an idea to have quite some GM's, preferably one for each player although less could do, like one per 2/3 players...

Also, it's quite unimportant, but since we're all on vdiplomacy we could scrap the e-mail-adresses and just do it via PM, right? Because my e-mail is, well, spam...

If it is via PM, how would maps be sent?

It will have to be via email, because, as Ninjanrd said, maps and other information must be sent, and the PM system on here is not built for this sort of communication.

As for the GM situation, I have received an offer of help already, so we'll probably have 2 people working on it for some time period.

Victory conditions for this variant are usually determined by "points" (as described in the link) instead of SCs. Points are rewarded for exploring, meeting people, city size, etc. A little different way of winning than we're all used to!

Good point about the email thing, that case is closed :P

As for the victory conditions: I just mean that the game has to be finished before it ends if you know what I mean... The game should end in the end game...

It was meant as a solution to the problem RUFFHAUS 8 mentioned:
"The only drawback of the Explore! game is that in order to accomeodate the massive work load ont he GMs the victory conditions have always been set so low, that the game is declared over before anyone truly wins anything. It's very similar to setting a WW4 game here to 25 centers for a solo."

I'm aware of the fact that the points system is entirely different...

Greetings from the games designer!
I had seen mention of this game on Redscape (posted by Rufhaus8) and in fact also had a note in my email from yet another member so i figured I would see what you guys have to say about my little creation.

I would be more than happy (eager in fact) to work with anyone who wishes to start a game. Let me see if I can answer the questions that have been asked to date...

The game is intended to be a cross of sorts between Civilization (the computer game was more in my mind than the board game when developing things) and of course Diplomacy. While it borrows from Civ it is Dip at it's core, Civ gamers would find the game almost unrecognizable while Dip players would know how to get along quite easily. It is a fun game and while almost unheard of by most (due to it's secret fog of war nature and such) it is the most loved of my many variants. (most also posted on the same webpage)

Someone mentioned being possibly interested after reading and understanding the rules. While that is certainly important to do, the game has ALWAYS been fully understood by all players in a very short time, it has a learning curve no doubt but Dip players will "get it" in a quick time.

Each game is different and must be drawn by hand with balance in mind. The players will not know if this were a 7 player game or up to say 18 players (the most I hosted and that was waaaay too many to handle!). But it is not open to any number, it simply is unknown at the games start how many players we have.
While the game needs to be balanced, I have learned the hard way that a perfect balance type of mirrored map where all have exact similarities should be avoided at all costs, the game simply needs to be "somewhat" equal in how players start and will be likely expected to proceed through the midgame. (I could get into exact details if any want to know what i have learned CONFLICT however is key!)

as far as drawing the map, that is the boring part! But once done and the game starts everyone has a great time! The workload for the GM is pretty intense however and as anything done by hand, mistakes are easy to come by. The game starts pretty easy but each turn gets harder and harder and harder to process. I found it took me two days of 3-5 hours each day to process near the end of a game. Players must be patient waiting for results and they must be willing to accept random deadlines ...the early stages can see several moves in a week while later settling into once per week deadlines.

With this in mind, you must accept the game simply can not be run to half the supply centers to be won. It would take years to complete and this type of game really demands players be greatly interested in the game at hand, drop outs in this game would kill it more than a standard game. Loss of interest is almost the same result as well! Another thing to consider is this game has a great deal of "personalization" to it and when you get beat in a standard Dip game ...oh well. Here however you lost the nation you built, you explored, you named! It "hurts" to lose this game and playing it out too long leaves a bad taste (trust me it does). You also need to realize this is not a standard game of Dip, it has points for a reason. You can certainly play to more points but it must be kept to a manageable number to balance all these factors and should absolutely not be played to half plus one! It is not simply about GM workload, far from it! (but it certainly is one BIG factor no doubt)

Lastly (for now?) while the game is supposed to be secretive, you do not want to post those who will be playing, it wouldn't kill the game if a few were "leaked" as has been done, I would trust everyone to be gentlemen and play by the rules. NO contact with others before you actually meet in game. If I were to cheat by contacting others, I would expect that player to cry foul and report me to the GM. So you need to realize cheating this way would require at least two to cheat so it's not a huge issue that some players have been leaked but it is a good idea to keep the requests to play private!

I welcome questions, please keep me filled in!!!

Welcome Tomahaha! I was the person who sent you the email earlier, and if possible, I'd like to have a discussion about map creation via email. Thanks for checking vdip out, I hope that your wonderful fusion variant can be successfully implemented in our community!

So folks, I take it if you are interested PM drano019?

Excellent! The best way to do this adaptation to VDiplomacy would be with Tom's involvement in a George R.R. Martin kind of way.

One of the chief challenges to GMing this game may be overcome by the adjudication program. There is already developed coding implented here for playing variants under 'fog of war rules' It's very possible that with some additional code witing that the Explore style map could be revealed to players through their VDiplomacy account interface without a human GM having to slave away for hours on end. The always fun map sharing aspect could still be managed with private email contact if players wish to engage in it. Since the sharing is not a requirement of the game it seems easily enough handled that way, and those who want to exchange emails, can then do so once they make contact in the game.

Also if there is a way to use the random map generator to assist in creating maps (which would then have to be adjusted for some balance) we could conceiveable have an infinant number of maps to use or as many as a dozen maps the would be pulled randomly from a pool and played on repeatedly. I suppose if someone was inane enough to memorize it all, they might get an slight advantage, but that would require extensive knowledge of the maps and even with that you still have know knowldge of who's playing and how things have developed.

Anyway Drano, thanks for the inspiration and for making the suggestion. If we get this going I would definitely play

I'm interested if you have room

I have no idea how to work any adjudication programs and what that entails, that being said, I wonder if anything is possible due to the completely different nature of units involved? You have some with greater offense, some greater defense, cities with built in defense, etc

I also forgot to post something yesterday, I understand those who would like the game to go to half+1 supply centers, I also understand the reason to want more and more points but you have to realize this is a different game and points need to be balanced in the right way. If you go too long then you reward those who sit home and build defense (for example, let others find you and gain contact points for doing nothing) and the game gets quite boring for all. With too few points the game is going to those who explored too much and gambled they would not get attacked, too many points goes to defensive city builders, finding the right balance is what is needed and that will never suit all players all the time, trust me (I have also played the game many times) the game is a ton of fun and you want to keep going! But part of anything good leaves you wanting more??? Trust me here, I know some want it to play on, I have had many "arguments" (nothing major mind you!) with Ruffhaus8 in the past, he likes the games to go on, I get it! But the game is not suited to that, it has part to do with the GM workload for sure but that is only PART of the reasoning, it's also about balance that must be maintained and that balance has to do with the map size and the number of players in the game ... generally the bigger the game, the more points you should require to win but even then, you run into a sort of magic number where it must still stop ...its very fuzzy as to how to figure it out, much is guess work!

as far as making a map, here is what i do...
I draw a general concept on a sheet of paper and get the basics down in a VERY rough way, then I get in my paint program (I have a cheap paint program I can mail you if you ask, I have a few versions but actually prefer the most simple oldest version (JASC Paintshop Pro version 5) and I draw a quick freehand sketch then edit it pixel by pixel. Then similar drawing editing with all the provinces inside the continents and islands. Then "code" each space using three letter codes that can easily be flood filled (no "O" shaped letters) and I will often use the same codes in multiple parts of the map ...doesn't matter since you simply want to avoid any ambiguity and it's quite clear where each unit is intended to go (this also saves a lot of time). I have also started with different unique areas of the real world and edited HEAVILY to change and wrap them around (one time I started with the New York City metro area, after morphing the areas it was unrecognizable by even myself but it was a good place to start)
Mapping a new area usually takes me a good week of a few hours per day while watching tv it aint so bad. I can even send an old map that can be tweaked if you like!

I do not recall getting any messages from Drano (the other person was Marcel or I think his name here is "Illum"? But I am happy to help him out in any way he would like.

I think it's important to consdier this discussion in two distinct contexts. First of all can this game be adapted for play under the Web Diplomacy adjudication/mapping system? I think that the answer to this is yes, regardless of the complexities of weighted unit and cities strengths. It simply requires someone to write the code for it, and would very likely need a few play tests to sort out matters. I say "simply" relectantly because I certainly cannot do it, but there are those here who can. Once the code is written then the scope and scale of the game is irrelevant because there is no longer issue of GM workload. And in such a scenario a proper Diplomacy game could be played, with proper defined as victory going to a player who dominates the rest of the map, and victory conditions set accordingly. The game is still fun with victory conditions set lower, but the entire point of discussing it here is to try to find a way to avoid the need for a GM. The decision of when to stop is then taken by the players, as it should be.

If someone with the code writing skills was so inclined, this could be taken on a s project with the creator's consultation. Although the rules noted at the top of this thread are really sufficient information. The challenge would be how to do with with random maps. It seems to me that for each new map, and entirely new variant would have to be created. And that's why I suggested starting with a pool of 4-6 maps, rather than using a new map each time. That way the game could be regularly enjoyed without the need to re-code a map each time.

Absent any movement on the variant's adaptation to VDiplomacy then we're just talking about finding players that would like to play a hand-adjudicated game, which would have to be played by email. In this scenario wed need a GM familiar enough with the rules to create a map and manage a game. In all candor there are only a handful of people capable of doing this right now.

So is this a project for variant development, or a call to play a game offsite? I think that both of worthy conversations, but conducted in the same place, somewhat counterproductive. Drano, what is your

RUFFHAUS brings up a good point. There are 2 directions to take here, and discussing them both on the same thread is somewhat confusing and counterproductive.

My initial call was to find people willing to play offsite via email. That morphed into the discussion about trying to code it for vdip. Considering the work that will be required to code the variant for vdip, and considering my lack of any useful coding knowledge, I would like to focus personally on implementing a game offsite.

That said, I will gladly assist anyone who wishes to try to implement parts of the game on vdip in any way I can whether with play testing or ideas.

And so, I'd like to pull this thread back towards implementing a game offsite (as I think it's a reasonable objective in a fairly short time frame as opposed to the long term objective of coding a new variant and rules). I have received a message from another play who is willing to help me GM, and I'll hopefully hear back from Tomahaha about that paint program he used soon. Once that happens, I'll gladly collaborate with anyone who wants to help assist in creating and balancing the map.

I do not doubt the game COULD be done by a adjudication program but the logistics of this would be daunting to say the least. Entire new situations need to be figured out not to mention the new map each time to boot. You would also run into problems with contacts, can it be written into the code to pass along contact information when new players are met? While that might be somewhat minor and could be something done away with, it really does add one of the nicer game touches and helps with game balance setting this game apart from a standard game.

Even if you can find some super-human code writer to do this, it would take a long while for him to finish, I would also be willing to bet it would be wise for that person to actually play a game to fully understand things that may otherwise be missed?
I am more than happy to share everything I know, everything I have with those who wish to attempt this game.It has been GMed by I think 4 people other than myself so far so it CAN be done and all those who did so enjoyed the experience. It is NOT for a new GM and the GM must have dedication and patience, he also needs to have and understand some very basic paint program skills (as should the players to a lesser degree when they share map info they will want to block out certain areas and/or even change what they share, the shared info does not need to be genuine!!! again, part of the fun!). I have a cheap program I can mail and even hand walk that player through the basics of the program enough to run the game hell, they can likely teach me after a couple weeks time, for example, I never bothered to figure out layers, I manage to do the game all on one single layer.