Very true butterhead and fasces. But let's be realistic. In a nuclear war isn't that the whole point of Mutually Assured Destruction. It becomes a very powerful bargaining chip. I guess the one thing that may change in the variant once its developed and we have some games is working out what is the tipping point that everyone loses and Nuclear Fallout "wins".

One thing I think the variant would also need would be a convert option so players could de-escalate a situation by converting one or more nukes into conventional units, or the flip side, deciding to convert conventional units into nuclear missiles.

"It becomes a very powerful bargaining chip"
That what I was emphasizing, either I am in the draw or I am nuking the shit out of the map.

"One thing I think the variant would also need would be a convert option so players could de-escalate a situation by converting one or more nukes into conventional units, or the flip side, deciding to convert conventional units into nuclear missiles."
Agreed, and in terms of coding certain maps have a transform option so its easily codeble (I assume, I have never coded with php)

Great idea on the convert/transform option. Regarding the tipping point, it would be nice to see it around 50%. I think Fallout could get old quick if it was the norm.

May I see the map please? Same as WWIV?

it will have to be a little different because of 2 korean powers but atm 1 Korean sc,

I suppose we'll still have the map based on the WWIV one but just reallocate the supply centres right?

This sounds so fascinating especially when I am now taking a course about WMDs ~

Bump

Anything else need to be discussed?

Ok, a couple of minor things:

- DoubleCaps - generally the WWIV with some minor tweaking
- thanks to all on Fallout levels. 50% makes sense. And thanks on support for unit conversion.

I've checked one final thing with Oli and he says it should be technically possible and I think gives the variant one final edge.

Understandably if a player (lets say hypothetically Russia) decides to launch all their nukes in a first strike on USA, as the rules currently stand there's no chance for the US to hit back. Not very realistic. So I was thinking if you want to use nukes you have to effectively go into "launch" mode. This would mean all players would see at the end of the turn that a large scale nuclear strike had been initiated by Russia with launches detected across his territory. This would then mean if say Russia was in conflict conventionally with USA over Alaska or Hawaii etc, USA would suspect the incoming nuclear strike was aimed at him and could send a counter strike back. Of course this could be very interesting if at the same time Russia was involved in a ground war with China and the nukes were actually planned for China and not the US. The US' missiles would still be launched and couldn't be recalled. What do you think?

If all is well and people are happy with what's proposed I aim to start work on the variant this weekend (but remember these things take time... often a lot of it!)

So you are trying to simulate the second-strike Doomsday Machine eh?

But I am thinking about this: does it takes a full turn to enter into launch mode? In that case the following will happen:
Turn 1: US enters launch mode
Turn 2: Russia enters launch mode, but US missiles strike their targets already ... I.e. Russian silo SCs are already destroyed ...

There can only ever be 2 unit types So I'm gathering that 'launch-mode' is equivalent to transforming all of your 'army' units into nuclear units...

The launch mode could be workable if it allowed the player in a launch mode to target any other player, while players not in a launch mode could target only players in launch mode.

The only way I can think of implementing it would be by establishing temporary connections between provinces. A player in launch mode would gain access to all territories on the map - since the connection is a two-way, other players could retaliate while not being able to target anyone else. The code is far over my head though :)

I've talked to Oli and the code is possible although if we find it too complex we may have to leave this bit out.

And you're right Lukas - we need to look deeper into that.

I just read through this thread for the first time and I really like the idea of the variant. I think, like many others, Option 2 is better.

One thing I thought of regarding a near-fallout situation with a player who could send it over the edge with a nuke. Wouldn't it be possible to simply have another player nuke them in the autumn and then they are eliminated? It would essentially void the idea of threatening a nuclear fallout if anyone tries to steal that player's center.

This sounds very exciting though :D

Fallout being 50% of what for everyone to lose? I think it ifs 50% of all scs, then it would be almost impossible to get to that level...

Sorry for not being clear Fasces. I meant if a "Fallout win" only occurred, roughly, 50% of the time.

@Amby- for the "Launch Mode" a solution could be this:
If it's possible, you could code it that when a country goes into launch mode, the next phase all other powers nukes are unlocked, I.E they can be fired without being in launch mode, but ONLY at a country IN Launch mode. for example:
Spring- Russia and China enter launch mode
Fall- USA, England, France launch nukes at Russia AND/OR China.
Russia and China can nuke anybody, while everyone else can only nuke the two of them. is this possible?

Isn't that the same as what I proposed? :)

It is exactly what you said, only with an example to make it more clear and because they seemed to have overlooked your post about it. :)

Ya, I might be invisible or something, thanks for reiterating :)

haha you're welcome :P

Also another idea that could represent "launch-mode" would be only allowing the building of conventional units in SCs. Then, similar to a transform, a unit can "enter launch-mode" and transform into a nuclear unit for the next turn. That way, if you notice a player transformed units into nuclear ones, you can expect they will be looking to use them.

myLAAN:
not quite the same because you didn't spell out the fact that other powers can bypass the launch stage and directly enter the firing stage if someone enters launch mode at the first place ~ but it may just be that I misinterpreted your words ... Either way we're good with your suggestion with butterhead's explanation now :)

Spartan:
Not quite, because ppl may want to transform so they can have their own nuclear deterrence against possible attacks. I think the transform option and launch mode are two different matters.

Transform and launch are definitely different matters. Personally, I don't think the transform option would work, since if one player (say Russia) transformed all his units in spring and no one else did, he'd have free shots at anyone and everyone in the fall. It still wouldn't get around the no-retaliation problem. I think the "launch mode" idea is the only workable way around it at this point.

How about a Nuclear weapon taking two phases to attack? I'll explain in a little more detail...

There's a territory/box on the side of the map called 'Launched Missiles'. When a country orders for a nuclear weapon to attack another province, it moves to the Launched Missiles box - this means that everyone can see that the country has launched a missile, but the target is not yet clear - and then, the phase afterwards, it moves to the targeted territory and 'attacks'.

For example:
USA and China are at war.
Spring move: China orders to launch a missile at a US Supply Centre. The Missile moves to the Launched box so everyone can see that China has launched a missile.

Fall move: USA orders to launch a missile at China, suspecting the missile is coming for him. India also launches a nuke at China as he thinks the missile is coming his way.

Resolution: When the Fall phase is resolved, China's nuke hits the US and obliterates an SC. The US missile has moved to the 'Launched Missiles' box and will hit China at the end of the Spring phase. The Indian missile is also now in the 'Launched Missiles' box and will hit China at the end of the Spring phase - India has now realised that the Chinese nuke was not meant for him, but he cannot now stop his nuke from hitting China.


That seems to bring quite an interesting aspect to the game, and also solves the retaliation problem.

I'm not sure if this is what Amby meant with his original Launch Mode post but I thought I'd post it anyhow, in case it wasn't.

Captainmeme, So say India launches his nuke at China, like you described. If, after the fall phase is done, India has lost a large amount of SCs, would the launched nuke count as a unit that India could potentially destroy? Or would a launched missile no longer count towards the unit count during builds?

I imagine the Nuke would count as destroyed the moment it is launched, so if someone launches a nuke it is no longer counted as a unit, as it does not need upkeep and there is no way to destroy it.

For example: India has 3 SCs, and his units consist of 2 armies and one nuke. He launches the nuke in the Fall, as in the example again. He is now counted as having only two units to 3 SCs, so if he loses no SCs he can build a new unit, despite the Nuke still being there. If he loses one SC he would not have to disband anything as he would have 2 SCs to 2 units, because the nuke no longer counts.

I'm not sure how easy this would be to code, though...

That seems like it would make the most sense. I have no programming background so my knowledge on code is very minimal...