Oli, I would once again stress that NMRs and certainly CDs do far more damage to games than taking over a CD position benefits the site.. Accordingly I would suggest a point structure where a CD takeover is weighted as less earned and NMRs and CDs are weighted higher in terms of penalties. Using your calculation structure I would suggest NMR = -0.5, CD = -1.0, and CD takeover at + 0.5.

This will strongly discourage NMRs and CDs, and make those instances where repenting players may repair their good standings. Naming this stat, need be nothing more than what you called it above: CDs/Takeovers.

Is there a reason why you are so opposed to the idea of heavier penalties as compared to the perks? If you are at all serious about reducing NMRs and CD, there should be real measures to discourage them. The point structure you just laid out will only serve to make players lazier because they can bail on two games for every one that they pick up.

If you bail on two games your stat is -2 (4x-0.2 + 2x-0.6 = -2), so you need exactly 2 takeovers.

Oli -

If that's the case, then nothing has changed. People can repair this rating in literally seconds by taking over games.

@drano: Yes. That how this should work. And a lot has changed. You have non-fixable stats now for the reliability-rating. I would call this a huge improvement.

@drano: Because this rating will be just used to award some medal (or penalities) the result of the calculation is not even really important if the corresponding interpretation is correct.
We just need a good way to value CDs vs. NMRs vs. CDtakeovers (vs. maybe I missed something). And interpret the final result so not all players quit playing here because it's to harsh, and on the other side still has an educational effect.

Is there no maximum amount of games to join now?

I fully agree with RUFFHAUS_8. I agree so much with him that I will use some of his words.

First of all, in order that we possibly all understand each other better, I am asking this question to EVERYONE :

Does one person here think that NMRs and certainly CDs DO NOT do far more damage to games than taking over a CD position benefits the site ?

If we all agree on that question, then we should absolutely have a point structure where a CD takeover is weighted as less earned and NMRs and CDs are weighted higher in terms of penalties.

Without such a point structure, yes indeed : lazy players will find it much EASIER to take over some CDed country rather than finishing the games they have started without CDing ! Indeed, please think about it : taking over a 1 SC country could possibly ask you to play a very little number of Phases. On the contrary, finishing your probably lost game could require a rather large number of Phases.

And here we are just discussing a certain number of Phases but it should not be forgotten that a game can be terribly damaged forever because of a CD !


Oli, please do not forget your first goal in this discussion :
"Penalize CDs/NMRs by limiting players with a low score on how many games they can play the same time." [YOUR EXACT WORDS].

--------------------
PS : Oli, I have just read your latest message.

No, ALL players will not quit playing here because it's too harsh.
Indeed, only those who will get terribly penalized could possibly have the desire to quit playing here. And I am in fact certain that even the most penalised players will keep playing here as long as they can join at least x games. Now we may wonder about the value of x.

Oli -

I have to ask the question: What does this site value more? Having players who are dedicated and devoted to improving the game of Diplomacy, this site, and play in general? Or making sure we dont' drive away players?

I've heard around the web recently that vdip is basically taken as a joke. Making sure we don't "drive away" people by babying them only contributes to the perception that vdip is a site for n00bs and that nothing good comes out of vdip. More worrying, I've heard from several of the most respected and best players on vdip that they are considering leaving vdip because of the attitude here.

What it seems to me is that there is a fairly large percentage of the forum-active players here who are calling for vdip to "up" it's game. For vdip to take a stand and basically say "if you can't get your shit together, we don't want you here".

So, the overarching question is: is that a possibility? Or are we wasting our breath?

Basically vDip is a site about _developing_ variants. (A thing that does not happen that much these days). It's about having some fun and playing some games. As most of you should already realized, I do not have a die hard serious approach to all these things.

But I like to collect more ideas to get a better idea how to solve problems. I will decide as I want, as this is my site, and you can only make suggestions (you still did not make any). I will listen but I will use all data I gather here to make a decision that may be _not_ how you would solve this. Usually it's very different from what I have in mind too, but if you accept only _your_ solution (still not presented) you will be disappointed for sure.

In the discussion about the RR I think I found a working solution. I was ok with the old way of calculating the RR, but I did see the flaws once pointed out, so I started working on a possible solution. Same here.

To your question: is that a possibility? Or are we wasting our breath?
You still have not voiced your suggestions, so I can't comment if that's a possibility. We will see, once we get a more concrete suggetion from you.

I do not plan to please anyone here. There are many different apects to consider. I will consider your opponion, I will consider other oppinions too.
If you look at webdip you will see the problems with CDs is far greater there (20% vs. 11% joinable games). And not many are complaining there.

I agree with Oli...including vdip, I am registered at three diplomacy sites, and this one is handeling CDs and NMRs the best way...

Oli,

I certainly always have in my mind that this is your site and that what you offer to us for free is fantastic ! I am very grateful to you for vdiplomacy.

If I understood correctly, you just wrote that we still did not make any suggestion.
Well, that is not correct. Indeed, about 2 hours and an half ago, RUFFHAUS_8 wrote :

"Using your calculation structure I would suggest NMR = -0.5, CD = -1.0, and CD takeover at + 0.5."

That is a suggestion, isn't it ?

wow, just WOW
we went over this and seemed to all agree reliability had NOTHING to do with taking over CD positions. We seemed to be in further agreement that it was far too easy to simply make up for it by taking over someone elses CD. Now we go right back to where we were....why did we discuss everything and why did you suggest making changes when almost everyone agreed? This is frankly STUPID. I am not going to tip toe around the incredibly stupid idea this is. You do nothing more than reward slackers with this structure and you deteriorate the level of play. yes, it really is that simple!

If you cater to the lowest level player, that is what you will attract. If you simply want sheer numbers of inept, careless, fly by night player, then you are doing a fine job, keep this ridiculous system in place. If however you want to improve the level of play and want to attract better players and KEEP those you develop here, then fix what most certainly IS broken!

I come here with a long Diplomacy past, I heard many things and decided to find out for myself and those things I heard, they were TRUE. I decided to speak up and give ways to improve, to point out some bad ideas. I was met with resentment and resistance to change, the thought was to cater to the "casual" gamer. Now you do this for that same reason.

Again, I must point out this is incredible short sightedness. Even casual players who decide they LIKE this game called Diplomacy will search for better competition when they discover NMR's are simply not tolerated and are treated like the plague on other sites. Yes, they exist everywhere but on other sites they are not accepted and not "embraced" as they seem to be here.

Can I say it again, this ide is STUPID and Ill Conceived, I am here to play my WW4 game, If that went well and I found a good group, I might have stayed around for further games. While you still do have some decent people here, I am afraid to say you have too few and you WILL lose them given time, that is if these policies that reward poor play and/or cheating remain in place. As for me, I do not plan on staying around UNLESS things improve, each time it seems like you care, it's dropped and dismissed...not the sign of an exceptional Dip community now is it?

to make things even worse, I see a few postings that actually SUPPORT these ideas...allow players to easily and fully recover from NMR's and CD's, allow people to drop positions as others join and then rejoin in a prearranged alliance, it goes on and on, there really is no understanding some people, some like to take advantage of poor players so the more you have, the better they feel beating up on lesser talent. To put it frankly, those who agree with these positions as you have them are simply BAD Diplomacy players, no two ways about that, they would get eaten alive on quality sites but they thrive here. If this is the people you want, hey keep them here by doing nothing.

Oli, you ask for a way to value NMR's, CD's and CD takeovers.
Frankly NMR/CD have nothing to do with CD takeovers...NOTHING!

Frankly this is like asking how we punish Murder and Rape but want to value babysitting. Hey, babysitting for your friends and neighbors is wonderful, we want to encourage this so lets have every time you rape or murder someone you make up for it by babysitting. The two have nothing in common, nor do cd takeovers vs CD's/NMR's.

You need TWO systems one to PUNISH NMR's and CD's
another to reward CD takeovers
But they should have nothing to do with one another, You want to reduce the penalty....don't! You do nobody a favor by doing so, you only encourage further NMR's
In fact, as it is I could bail on my game and talk to my buddy who bailed on his game, we simply pick up each others games (now that both ruined their respective games) we simply "phone in" orders and not really try to improve the faltering game and presto ...good as new!?
Now how dumb does that sound? Yet here it is in action!

It's a little stat on each person's profile that shows a small fact about them. A little more information about each person. I think if you want to read into it you can draw any conclusions you want, but your behaviour here, especially your needlessly holier than thou attitude are extremely impolite Your constant pissing and moaning on the forum is really not appreciated.

I like that Oli is trying to allow redemption. I believe redemption is possible. Here's my idea.

SUGGESTION:
List the CD's, NMR's, and Takeovers separately. These will only reflect the past year of the player. I chose a year arbitrarily, but another time period would be fine.

If the code allows it, I would prefer the stats not to reset to zero at the start of a year. Rather, it would be better if they were cumulative and to update at certain checkpoints during the year. At the top of the month would be a good time to update. Then we see how the player's habits change and hopefully improve.

My idea does not interact with Reliability Rating.
--------

How does this hold people accountable? The record gives a more accurate picture of the player's habits. It doesn't prevent people from joining. However, we have passwords for that. Sometimes we will get new people who don't enjoy the game and leave. That's the way it goes. It's like honking at traffic. Nobody enjoys it, it costs everyone time, but complaining won't get anybody anywhere.

How does it allow for redemption? It encourages players to have good habits and help out. If we see a person has lousy win rates, but a lot of takeovers, we can conclude the person is trying to help out. If a person had a falling out with Diplomacy a year ago, it isn't held against them. If someone has this stat on their profile for a year and stayed active, I'll say they paid for the CD.

I look forward to your comments on this idea.

Follow up after reviewing the current system:
I have no problem with the current system on the profiles. However, if I were to incorporate the current system we have and my prior post, this is what we would have.

Let the reliability only be the missed phases. The other three components would be listed separately. Then we don't have to worry about giving each thing a certain weight.

My system would not remove the missed phases after a year.

@Drano - Every diplomacy site thinks every other dip site is inferior in some way. I've played on PlayDip, Stabberfou, Facebook, WebDip, vDip and in one game on RedScape, and mentioning any one of them to any other one will instantly lead to people saying that that site is for noobs and is a joke. That doesn't mean it actually is.

@All - I think you're missing the point here. The NoNMR and NoCD stats would still be there; this would be an additional thing which is to encourage CD takeovers. This final stat is not supposed to be there to show other people someone's reliability - that's what the first two are for - it's to get people to take over CD'd positions.

How about bribing people with credits to take over?