Hi Fischfix,

You will quickly discover that there are a variety of player types to be found playing Diplomacy and its variants. The moderators do not interfere with players chat and communication and swearing and getting angry (or posturing) are legitimate forms of communication & can achieve desired goals. Even EoG (End of Game) statements can be informative and while you might not use this sort of language it is perfectly within player's rights to do so if they wish.

We have however provided players with tools that they can use to avoid language that they disagree with & to avoid playing against players that they detest. In-game you can 'mute' a player to avoid receiving further messages from them. Outside of a game you can both mute a player &/or block a player from entering into games that you are in - you can do this by clicking on their name to enter their settings - and click the smiley-face icon to 'block' and/or the speaker icon to 'mute'.

Welcome to vDip.
Kaner406

from what I understand, DEFIANT has played with Ruffhaus for many years. This should help explain it.

DEFIANT's a great guy!!!! As a former hockey player, it's in his blood.

DEFIANT is not a grumpy old goat!!

+1 Raro

First of all, thank you, Fischfix, for opening this thread.

@ kaner406 (and of course @ everybody) :

I STRONGLY disagree with you, kaner406 !

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The "Mute" feature is a tool that has TOO MANY disadvantages :

- In a game, if you mute another player, you are obviously putting yourself at an immediate and major disadvantage.

- In the forum, if you mute a player, it can have the consequence that you are not able to understand a conversation if that player posts messages in it.
Worse : you could even have a misunderstanding without realizing it !

For example, let's imagine that you have blocked player B. Here is a part of a conversation in the forum :

- Player A : I love pizza.
- Player B : I love apples.
- Player A : That's my favourite fruit !

→ Do you understand that muting player B makes you think that player A has just written that pizza is a fruit ?
That was just a very simple example in order to prove to you that muting players makes the forum actually unreadable.

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The "Block" feature is a fantastic tool ! It allows you to avoid being in a game with players who don't communicate in full press games, or who repeatedly NMR or CD, or, finally, are disrepectful with their language.

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Which bring us to the question of RESPECT.

NO, kaner406, it is not true that :
"swearing and getting angry (or posturing) are legitimate forms of communication & can achieve desired goals." [YOUR EXACT WORDS]

You are VERY WRONG with that comment ! You must RESPECT other persons. First of all, it is a simple question of decency.
But it is also a rule of this internet site ! Please read the first sentence below the word "! Responsibilities" on http://www.vdiplomacy.com/rules.php :

"Use common sense and respect other players."

It says, "RESPECT OTHER PLAYERS". Did you miss that part, kaner406 ?

kaner406 and all those players who think that "swearing and getting angry (or posturing) are legitimate forms of communication & can achieve desired goals", do you behave like that in your Real Life ? Do you really find that such a behaviour is acceptable ?
Do you really all think that you are though guys with a thick skin ? Seriously, please think about it : if you were facing for real a person who starts swearing, getting angry or posturing, how long do you think it would take before you would feel VERY UNCOMFORTABLE, or even TERRIBLY AFRAID for your life ? The answer is simply much less than one single second.

So, why would that be that the internet would be allowed to be a place of disrespect and violence ?

Are your points of view so weak that you need to attack people instead of their ideas ? Is your vocabulary so poor that you need to use rude and insulting words ?

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The webdiplomacy forum has become a real garbage full of very rude people. That forum is so bad that webdiplomacy has lost many players.

kaner406, you are a moderator here : do you really want that players like fischfix, for example, leave our site because it is a place where disrespect is accepted ?
Do we really have too many players ?
Don't you want that new players feel that vdiplomacy is a nice place where they feel welcomed and where they want to stay ?

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One more thing, please.

Have you considered that there are MANY VERY young persons on this site ? MANY players are under the age of legal majority. Many players are only 15 or 14 years old. I even read once on this forum that a player was 11 years old !

Gentlemen, especially those who have children, would you find it acceptable that your 12-year old (for example) son or daughter goes on an internet site where it is considered that
"swearing and getting angry (or posturing) are legitimate forms of communication & can achieve desired goals."
is acceptable ?

I'm with Kaner on this. Once you start policing what people say, one thing leads to another and players are banned for speaking their mind. Freedom of speech can sometimes suck and as gentlemen (and some ladies) we should think before we speak, we should realize what is being said might be seen by minors and/or be hurtful to others. But I do not think censorship is a viable answer. If someone says something you find offensive, then speak up and call them on it asking them to please remove the offensive portions. If they go WELL beyond what you deem acceptable behavior (racial slurs for example) then report them to the moderators and let them look into things. I am sure they would review the situation and talk to that player, then again, knowing censorship is greatly frowned upon, you may have to accept they feel it may be in poor taste but not "punishable". I would think one would have to really go overboard to get "punished" or "spoken to" but that would be possible I'm sure.

as far as a few F bombs being dropped, I agree a player should NOT do so, but some people are less concerned about such speech and it suits what they want said, in that case, simply reply they are being un-courteous and they sound ignorant and trashy, hopefully others in that forum would support you and teach that person a lesson in manners, but censorship is really a bad way to go!

Leave it to Raro, never to pass up a cheap shot, waging his whiney grudges across games and conversations. Poor Raro. He cannot win a game or a debate, and he even blames you for his NMRs. And the same goes for you fasces. You and Raro are the first in line to go crying anytime something doesn't go your way. Yet here you are taking gratuitous shots at others, pretending to be choir boys. I've seen plenty of profanity from both of these guys over the past two years. It's not surprising since both are guilty of Blatant hypocrisy here.

Retillion is wrong on nearly 90% of his rant above, but the one thing he has right is the respect issue. We need more of it here. Unfortunately he's not quite the angel that he portrays himself as. And that's okay. Diplomacy is a rough game, that incites passions in everyone. If you don't have thick skin, then you're not going to make it in this hobby. If if you want to be treated with respect along the way, then show it to others in the way you treat them. I treat everyone the way the same level of respect that treat me. If you mess with the bull, you get the horns. It's that simple.

In summary, grow a pair, man up, rub some dirt on it, and move on to the next game. This is a war game. It's not six year old soccer camp.

@ Retillion - would you prefer a dedicated team of uber-nerds who parse every conversation held on this site in order to make it politically correct? Would you like this uber-team to monitor every thing you write, just in case it might offend someone? I doubt it, however it sure sounds like you are making a case for this stance.

"In summary, grow a pair, man up, rub some dirt on it, and move on to the next game. This is a war game. It's not six year old soccer camp. " +1

+1 Respect

Enforcing BASIC STANDARDS with a code of conduct only strengthens the community, improves the quality of diplomacizing and the game, and benefits all of us. I wish the moderators would always look into the following when reported:

- Racist and sexist abuse, harassment, and threats
- Excessive and inappropriate diplomacy (e.g., non-stop vulgarities, violent comments)

and then:

1) Talk to those players
2) If the behavior continues, three strikes and you're banned

Diplomacy is a game, it's supposed to be fun. Most players here are great and it's only a few bad apples that need to be looked at from time to time, but it only takes one bad apple to ruin a game. This is not the thought police or diplomacy censorship, this is letting the few bad apples know that stepping over the lines of decency and respect will not be tolerated. Is it too much to ask the moderators to moderate?

Isn't it meta-gaming when i detest to play against a player who was rude in another game? i think this is against the oath of diplomacy.

@kaner406 :

You have just written :
"Would you like this uber-team to monitor every thing you write, just in case it might offend someone? I doubt it, however it sure sounds like you are making a case for this stance." [YOUR EXACT WORDS]

Can you read ? Where would I have written that I would *like this uber-team to monitor every thing you write, just in case it might offend someone* [YOUR EXACT WORDS]
I have never asked nor suggested such a thing ! Please read again my previous post and try to understand what I wrote.

What I would like is that this site is a place where a disrespectful or rude language is not accepted, as per the rules of this site specifically stated on http://www.vdiplomacy.com/rules.php :

"Use common sense and respect other players."

A player tells you that he is offended and you answer him "to grow a pair, to man up" ?
With that comment, not only do you show that you don't care to enforce the rules of this site regarding respect, but you start yourself to become disrepectful. Do you know that in many countries it is VERY insulting to question the virility of a man ?
Who do you think you are ? Who do you think the people here are ?
But yes, that wasn't your comment, you just copied RUFFHAUS 8's comment.


The solution is simply that if a player reports abusive language, then the moderators would check the situation and, if there was indeed abusive language, tell that player that this kind of language is not accepted.

PLEASE NOTE that I am NOT asking for punishment like G-Man does. Indeed, I do not like at all the idea of punishment and certainly not the idea of the three strikes ! By the way, G-Man, are you American ? We could discuss the consequences of the three-strikes laws but this is probably not the place and certainly not the moment.
No, I think that punishment would not even be necessary if the moderators simply tell a player that his language is not acceptable. At least, I think that punishment is not necessary between reasonable people.

By the way, kaner406, you are a moderator. Have you ever thought of the definition of the verb "to moderate ?" Do you know that the task of an internet moderator is in fact, in addition to take care of an internet site of course, to prevent language abuse ?


On another note, I understand why it is not possible to mute a moderator.
BUT WHY is it impossible to BLOCK a moderator ?


Finally, RUFFHAUS 8 and kaner406, you have written :
"This is a war game. It's not six year old soccer camp." [YOUR EXACT WORDS]

Really ? To me Diplomacy is NOT a war game. But, let's not discuss semantics.
In the expression "war game", the most important word is "game", isn't it ? Please do not forget that : Diplomacy is a GAME, it is not WAR.

Also you wrote "It's not six year old soccer camp." [YOUR EXACT WORDS]
Really ? This site is NOT an adult site ! It is available to even the youngest players, don't forget that either !
Hence my previous question :

Gentlemen, especially those who have children, would you find it acceptable that your 12-year old (for example) son or daughter goes on an internet site where it is considered that
"swearing and getting angry (or posturing) are legitimate forms of communication & can achieve desired goals."
is acceptable ?

I would be very pleased to read the opinion of the other moderators.

@ Retillion: Just because I suggested a version of the three-strikes policy for a game does not mean I support it in other contexts.

@ G-Man : Of course ! I never wrote nor thought that you did, or didn't, support it in other contexts.

Similarly, your previous post does not mean that you do not support it in other context.

I still have no possibility to know what your opinion on that subject is.

While I wish that it could be a conversational-free-for-all and for the players to just be tough about it, Retillion does have one very good point in that this site IS open to minors and thus seems incompatible with an anything-goes extreme content conversation level. I have no problem with it and I don't have kids but it is a legitimate concern.

Retillion - you offer criticism without any suggested course of action. The only course of action that follows logically from your stance is that moderators become heavily involved in moderating players speech. This is not going to happen we simply don't have the time nor the inclination to do so - however we have given the players here tools to self-moderate - so would you like to be constructive with your criticism and offer some implementable solutions that are more effective than the tools we have in place?

@Retillion, Let me offer some reasons as to why moderating speech just isn't feasible or in line with the spirit of the game.

The first one is what Kaner mentioned. The moderator team already has its hands full keeping games clean of cheaters and dealing with pauses, tournaments, and other requests of that nature. If the team became responsible for policing non-respectful behavior you would need to at least double the size of the team. Everyone has a different view of what disrespectful behavior consists of, and no matter how fair the moderators thought they were being someone would always be unhappy, or feel a biased decision was made. No one in their right mind would want to have to make decisions like that, as they would quickly become one of the most disliked people on the site.

Another reason. Lets say I'm Russia in a game and Turkey and I are allied. I allow Turkey to take the Black Sea. As soon as the turn goes through start cussing him out on the global press saying things like "You stupid idiot, how dare you stab me, I'm going to spend the rest of this damn game making sure you don't win" etc. Well in this situation my "disrespectful" words are a ploy, merely being used to create the impression of two players who aren't allied. The ruder and more offensive I am the more believable this strategy is (I kept my example relatively censored since I prefer to avoid swearing on forums but I'm sure you get the idea) . This is perfectly acceptable via the written rules of the game, and has a significant chance of giving me the outcome I'm looking for, deceiving other players on the board to the nature of my alliance with Turkey.

My last point is specific to this particular game. This was a gunboat game, all the press occurred after the game ended. Muting the offending player in the game would offer NO disadvantage at all, as the game was finished. So the tools available to this player were more then sufficient to allow them to police the undesirable behavior on their own.

@ kaner406 :

I wouldn't want to be unpleasant but I want to ask you :

1° Did you read G-Man's first post in this conversation ?
2° Did you read the post that I wrote after G-Man's first post ?

Indeed, these two posts propose solutions :

1° G-Man wrote :

"I wish the moderators would always look into the following when reported:

- Racist and sexist abuse, harassment, and threats
- Excessive and inappropriate diplomacy (e.g., non-stop vulgarities, violent comments)

and then:

1) Talk to those players
2) If the behavior continues, three strikes and you're banned"
[G-Man's EXACT WORDS]

Although I disagree with that solution, it is a proposition for a solution, isn't it ?

2° Then, I wrote :

"The solution is simply that if a player reports abusive language, then the moderators would check the situation and, if there was indeed abusive language, tell that player that this kind of language is not accepted."

It is also a proposition for a solution, isn't it ?


You know what, kaner406 ? The VERY FIRST step of the solution is simply that the Moderators/Administrators team states that disrespectful language is not accepted.
Such an official declaration could be made, for example, in a Thread specially created for that purpose.

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By the way, I wonder, who has read exactly what Fischfix has been complaining about. Have you, kaner406 ? Like Fischfix most clearly wrote it in the title of this Thread, it is in the Global Press of gameID=19431

DEFIANT's last message about France (the real country) is most probably the one who decided Fischfix to open this Thread. Indeed :
- the last but one message in that Global Press was written on July 03 (European Time),
- then, the last message, the one DEFIANT wrote about France (the real country), was written 6 days later, on July 09 (European Time),
- finally, 11 hours later, Fischfix opened this Thread.

And so, that message written by DEFIANT, which I am not going to copy here, terribly looks like xenophobic speech, isn't it ?

And so, I wonder, kaner406 :
- either you haven't read the Global Press of that game and you have allowed yourself to answer publicly to Fischfix without knowing what he was actually complaining about,
- either you, a moderator of this site, have publicly declared here that xenophobic speech is acceptable on this site.

Which of those two scenarios is correct ?

@jmo1121109 :

Thank you very much for your answer !

However, I STRONGLY disagree with you ! Indeed, adding rude language to a message does NOT add strength to it : it adds only VIOLENCE !

You just wrote :
"Everyone has a different view of what disrespectful behavior consists of, and no matter how fair the moderators thought they were being someone would always be unhappy, or feel a biased decision was made."
[YOUR EXACT WORDS]

Really ? Then how are moderated thousands of internet sites that do not accept language abuse ?


You just wrote :
"in this situation my "disrespectful" words are a ploy, merely being used to create the impression of two players who aren't allied. The ruder and more offensive I am the more believable this strategy is (I kept my example relatively censored since I prefer to avoid swearing on forums but I'm sure you get the idea) . This is perfectly acceptable via the written rules of the game, and has a significant chance of giving me the outcome I'm looking for, deceiving other players on the board to the nature of my alliance with Turkey."
[YOUR EXACT WORDS]

Do you really believe that "the ruder and more offensive you are, the more believable this strategy is" ?
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT ?


You also just wrote :
"This is perfectly acceptable via the written rules of the game"
[YOUR EXACT WORDS]

Really ? What written rules ? Are you telling me that the board game Diplomacy is sold with rules precising that it is allowed to be rude and offensive ?

-> Those comments of you are most disappointing ! Disappointing : you see, it is possible to express oneself strongly without being rude.


Have you ever played a face to face Diplomacy, or whatever other diplomatic game ? Would you find it acceptable to insult other players ? Would you find it acceptable to be insulted ? Would you ?


jmo1121109, seriously, your answer is ...

... disappointing.

Wow, putting the last word in another reply, such rhetoric skills :D
Aside of all the other points: young children get to hear swear words everywhere, be it facebook, school or this site. Thinking that banning words like fuck will protect them (from what exactly by the way?) is quite hypocritical.

Thank you to the moderator who posted the previous answer : at least you are in the same line than your collegues. So, do I understand you correctly : you too consider it acceptable to use xenophobic speech ?

So, your argument is that you should not avoid some bad behaviour because it is seen elsewhere. Wow ! What a rhetoric skill !

Are you also telling us that you let your young children use facebook ? No, of course...

... you are a little young to have have children (who talk), aren't you ?

Yup I'm 17, close to 18 though ;)
What is the problem with swear words? My six year old cousin recently said "shit"...so? I mean that's a bit like writing "f*ck", which I never understood, because everyone (the kids too) know you meant to write "fuck"...
As for Facebook, the opinions differ of course, and I too think that young children shouldn't be allowed to have it, although nt because of the language, but because it affects very early how they view and presenr themselves. That is a different topic though.
Please note that these are my personal opinions and have nothing to do with the moderator team.

You ask what the problem with swear words is ?

Do your parents, grandparents, teachers, any person of authority that you could possibly meet (like a policeman in the street, for example), or even totally unknown persons encourage, or even accept, swear words from you ?

Would you prefer to have a girlfriend who uses swear words all the time or one who expresses herself in a polite manner ?

Do you really want to know what the problem with swear words is ?
There are many problems about them but just think about this please :

The language affects the mode of thinking.


And please, don't forget : this whole conversation is not only about swear words, it started because of a xenophobic comment.

There is hardly any xenophobic speech there Retillion. This is precisely the reason we don't moderate speech - you see a xenophobe - I see someone who is just annoyed at how another member chose to play a game.

@ kaner406 :

To my knowledge, as soon as someone says something like "(People of) country X are/is *something bad*, there is xenophobic speech. Technically, even legally in many countries, it is called "hate speech".


Have you read DEFIANT's last comment in that game ?

Would you please explain to me what that sentence about France means ?


Is that your strategy, gentlemen ? Such comment is acceptable here because it is hardly xenophobic. Then such other comment is acceptable here because there is nothing wrong with swear words. Also, that other type of comment is acceptable here because it is seen in other places.

The fact that you don't see the problem, or should I say, that you refuse to see the problem does not mean that there isn't.

@Retillion:

Thank you very much for your answer !

However, I STRONGLY disagree with you ! Indeed, typing superfluous essays full of questions rather than arguments does NOT add strength to it : it only WEAKENS IT !

You just wrote :
"Really ? Then how are moderated thousands of internet sites that do not accept language abuse ?”
[YOUR EXACT WORDS]

Really ? You’re just going to ask rhetorical questions, rather than try to make an educated argument ? If you really want to know how thousands of internet sites are moderated, I’m sure you can look that up on your own time. That has nothing to do with the issue in this particular forum.


You just wrote :
“Do you really believe that "the ruder and more offensive you are, the more believable this strategy is" ?
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT ?”
[YOUR EXACT WORDS]

I, for one, DO REALLY BELIEVE that what jmo said is true. Even if this ploy works just one time out of ten, then it is still a worthwhile move to make. You never know what is running through the minds of our opponents, or that certain things we say can have a meaningful impact on their future actions. Is this not the entire purpose of Diplomacy ? Should we not try to manipulate our opponents into doing what we want them to do, rather than what they want to do ?


You also just wrote :
“Really ? What written rules ? Are you telling me that the board game Diplomacy is sold with rules precising that it is allowed to be rude and offensive ?”
[YOUR EXACT WORDS]

According to the official Diplomacy rules:
“During diplomatic negotiations, PLAYERS MAY SAY ANYTHING THEY WISH. Some players usually go to another room or organize private groups of two or three. They may try to keep their conversations secret. They may try to overhear the conversations of others. These conversations usually consist of bargaining or joint military planning, but they may include exchanges of information, DENOUNCEMENTS, THREATS, SPREADING OF RUMORS, and so on.”

Does it not say, right in the rules, that PLAYERS MAY SAY ANYTHING THEY WISH ? Or perhaps I missed the line that said ‘…except for rude language, or anything else that Retillion deems unsayable.’ Does it also not say that these conversations may include things such as THREATS and SPREADING OF RUMORS ? Yes, diplomacy is encouraging us to lie !!! So, Retillion, are you really such a moral person that you find it unacceptable to lie while playing Diplomacy ? I have plenty of firsthand experience of your lies, so I can answer this one all by myself. No. Who are you to say that lying is okay, but certain language is not ?

-> Those comments of you are most disappointing Retillion ! Disappointing : you see, it is possible that you don’t know the proper rules to this game.

You also just wrote :
“Have you ever played a face to face Diplomacy, or whatever other diplomatic game ? Would you find it acceptable to insult other players ? Would you find it acceptable to be insulted ? Would you ?”
[YOUR EXACT WORDS]

Why, yes, I have played several face to face games of Diplomacy, in which insults have been dished out constantly, and nobody in the games has thought that this was unacceptable ! You see, we all understood that it is just a game, and that anything that was said within the game does not show a person’s true nature.


Retillion, seriously, your answer is ...

Anyone who has played with me knows that I never swear or insult other players. But I understand that it's within a player's right to do so, and I felt that I had to express my opinion. You're way out of line on this one, Retillion.

Retillion -
"France I see you are true to your country for colors, the white flag. Another dumbass heard from."

Refers to the stereotype that the French are good for nothing but surrendering when things get rough, again you are making a really poor case for moderating speech. If stuff like this offends you then all the mods would be doing all day everyday would be making sure that people's egos are kept nicely petted and inflated because the forum would be flooded with people crying to the mods that so-and-so hurt their feelings.

If stuff like that actually offends you - then mute the player in-game. If that player continues to offend you - then block yourself from playing with them.
Simple.

However, I STRONGLY disagree with you ! Indeed, adding rude language to a message does NOT add strength to it : it adds only VIOLENCE !

You just wrote :
"Everyone has a different view of what disrespectful behavior consists of, and no matter how fair the moderators thought they were being someone would always be unhappy, or feel a biased decision was made."
[YOUR EXACT WORDS]

Really ? Then how are moderated thousands of internet sites that do not accept language abuse ?

MY ANSWER: This is simple, they have a large and dedicated moderating staff, and they ban people who violate their rules. This is a rather draconian approach, and is not what Kestas had in mind when he wrote the responsibilities section "I know because I have asked him". So to use that responsibility to back up your argument is invald. Now this isn't webdip, it's vdip, so Oli would have the choice of adding no vulgar speech to his rules, but he hasn't.


You just wrote :
"in this situation my "disrespectful" words are a ploy, merely being used to create the impression of two players who aren't allied. The ruder and more offensive I am the more believable this strategy is (I kept my example relatively censored since I prefer to avoid swearing on forums but I'm sure you get the idea) . This is perfectly acceptable via the written rules of the game, and has a significant chance of giving me the outcome I'm looking for, deceiving other players on the board to the nature of my alliance with Turkey."
[YOUR EXACT WORDS]

Do you really believe that "the ruder and more offensive you are, the more believable this strategy is" ?
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT ?

MY ANSWER: Yes, the more rude I am in this situation the more convincing it would be that I am angry with the player, distracting people from our actual intent. I've seen people do this specifically.

You also just wrote :
"This is perfectly acceptable via the written rules of the game"
[YOUR EXACT WORDS]

Really ? What written rules ? Are you telling me that the board game Diplomacy is sold with rules precising that it is allowed to be rude and offensive ?

MY ANSWER: Rules are not implied, if there isn't a rule banning something then it isn't banned. Assuming the creator of the game specifically thought there should be no swearing just because you don't like it despite the fact that he wrote no rule on it really is illogical reasoning. Diplomacy is a game of diplomacy and war, if you are under the impression that diplomats do not swear or make rude comments you are mistaken. Google can show you many examples. All forms of communication are implied from the very name of the game.

-> Those comments of you are most disappointing ! Disappointing : you see, it is possible to express oneself strongly without being rude.

MY ANSWER: And yet, while your comments are not directly rude I do find them disrespectful. The reason being that you ignored one of my key points, that implementing any type of speech moderation would require an excessively large moderation team, which no one would want to be a part of. I know because I have done EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING on webdip, and the feedback was negative beyond anything we'd ever seen before. So I view you ignoring my points and experience on the matter as exceedingly disrespectful. As well as the way you format your reply to imply that anyone who disagrees with you is a moron.

So I ask you, would you want me being the judge of what is or isn't respectful? And if not me, who would you be okay with making these judgement calls? Someone who only agrees with you, or would you accept a warning from an appointed respect moderator if they determined what you said wasn't respectful?


Have you ever played a face to face Diplomacy, or whatever other diplomatic game ? Would you find it acceptable to insult other players ? Would you find it acceptable to be insulted ? Would you ?

MY ANSWER: Yes, I played with friends and we were insulting each other all 5 hours of the game. It didn't make the game any less fun. Though