@ kaner406 :

Thank you for explaining to everybody what DEFIANT's comment was.

That stereotype, who is apparently rather believed in some anglo-saxon countries, is simply an insult to the French people. Some even think that it is just modern American propaganda. Anyway, anyone who has some historic knowledge knows that this so-called stereotype is simply false.

Like I told you, when someone says "(People of) country X are/is *something bad*", that is xenophobic speech. Technically, even legally in many countries, it is called "hate speech". And in many countries in the world, such a speech has been made illegal.

Whether you know it or not, it is so.

@Retillion:

You wrote:
"Give me your Home SCs or I will smash your ugly face into the wall."

I agree that statements like these are perfectly acceptable. What I don't understand is your logic. How can you possibly think that threatening someone with physical violence is okay, but swearing is not? Last time I checked, threats like those can get you arrested, at least in the US. The rules are perfectly clear: "PLAYERS MAY SAY ANYTHING THEY WISH." This is not something open for interpretation. It couldn't be any clearer.

You wrote:
"...even though you are right when you say that the official Diplomacy rules allow you to say anything you wish, you are wrong to think that it allows you to say anything you wish..."

Umm... what??? Can you please explain this?

Lastly, I completely stand by my statement about anything said within the game does not show a person's true nature. I have backstabbed many many allies throughout my games, as any half-decent player has done. But that in no way means that I would EVER betray my friends in real life. If you play Diplomacy exactly how you live your life (and this goes for everyone), I feel really sorry for the people that know you in real life.

@jmo1121109 :

Like I have already written it, the VERY FIRST step is simply to state that rude language is not accepted here. Without that initial condition, of course people would keep using any vocabulary or speech that they want and that represents potentially a huge work for the moderators.

It is true that it can be sometimes difficult to draw the line between what is acceptable and what is not but there are many obvious guidelines, aren't there ?

One more thing, it does not necessary require many moderators and a lot of work in order to keep a community using a polite language. I have know several examples of that myself but the best one is an internet site, which unfortunately disappeared several yers ago, that was dedicated to a diplomatic game called "Twilight Imperium" and that included a small community of a few hundred members, most of them living in Western countries, just like our vdip community. And you know what ? The ONLY "moderator" was the man who was running the site ! It was fantastic to see that, even though some exchanges on the forum were very strong, there never was vulgarity nor racism nor sexism nor any kind of hate speech. Each member simply knew that the community would not tolerate some kind of speech.

Retillion, you're full of crap as usual. Everything you do here offends me. Everything. I've been threatened against saying anything further on it, so I will respect the people who run this site and their wishes, and no elaborate further. But I want you to know that everything you do, and every thing you say, yes - "your exact words" offends me. It is actually almost impossible to offend me, although many folks here have tried and failed, but you manage somehow to do it with "your exact words". Congratulations.

We have to tolerate you here, so you can grow a pair, man up, and rub some dirt on it. This is Diplomacy. It is isn't six year old soccer. It IS a war game. That' not a matter of opinion. It's a fact. If that offends you, then good. I hope it does. It only goes to show that you're an overly insecure bully used to getting your way everywhere you go, and incapable of coping when you can't have your little red tricycle.

Opinion is your interpretation of terms like "xenophobia" and "hate speech" to say nothing of your understanding of what is and is not legal.

Furthermore Diplomacy is a board game recommended for players 12 years old and up (as a board game). This version of it is being played on the internet where kids 12 years and up are routinely exposed to far worse than anything that has ever beer said on this site. If parents choose to allow their children to play this game, and in doing so to to hold in depth and on-going conversations with other players of unknown identities, ages, backgrounds, etc. then it's their responsibility.

As kaner and jmo have pointed out, if they tried to sanction everything that someone found offensive here no one would be left to play - not even cheese eating surrender monkeys like you.

@B-RICH94 :

It seems that you have misunderstood me. I simply wrote that the fact that the rules of the game allow you to say anything you want do not in fact allow you to say anything you want. And that is because we live in reality.

1° The rules of Diplomacy allow us to say "Give me your Home SCs or I will smash your ugly face into the wall."
2° The rules of our world, like the law, or our decency, or simply the person we are talking to do NOT allow us to say "Give me your Home SCs or I will smash your ugly face into the wall."

→ The rules of our world supersede the rules of the game Diplomacy and, as a consequence, WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SAY ANYTHING WE WISH during a Diplomacy game.

Do you understand now my sentence :
"...even though you are right when you say that the official Diplomacy rules allow you to say anything you wish, you are wrong to think that it allows you to say anything you wish..." ?


I also stand with my statement that the way we play games, for example a Diplomacy game, reflects A LOT about our true nature.
That question is possibly the most interesting that has been raised during this whole conversation and I thank for having brought it up. It is, at least for me, but I know for some other players of our vdip community too, an extremely interesting question.

I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong but I would like that you ask yourself about that question that you have raised. You wrote that it is normal to stab a friend during a Diplomacy game but that you would never betray a friend in real life. Interesting... Isn't a face-to-face game part of real life ? This is just a simple question, not an attempt to make fun of you or to trap you.

I tell you what : there are many people with who I wouldn't want to play a face-to-face Diplomacy game because I wouldn't want to lie to them. For example, would you play a Diplomacy game with one of your children ? Would you be able to lie to your son or to your daughter ? Would you like to face the moment when (s)he realizes that his/her, father has lied to him/her ?

Anyway, that question about our behaviour in a game revealing our nature is extremely interesting ! Thank you again for it !

@ RUFFHAUS 8 :

You wrote :
"I want you to know that everything you do, and every thing you say, yes - "your exact words" offends me. It is actually almost impossible to offend me, although many folks here have tried and failed, but you manage somehow to do it with "your exact words". "
[YOUR EXACT WORDS]

I am very sorry to read that I have offended you.

As a matter of fact, it is hard to believe that everything I do and everything I say offends you, especially if, as you wrote it, it is actually almost impossible to offend you, although many folks here have tried and failed, but I manage somehow to do it.

But if you say so, it must be true. I am sorry for you...


As far as I am concerned, I am not at all offended in this story, I am just trying to have a civilized conversation about an academic question that could possibly improve our site.

By the way, when you write :
"If that offends you, then good. I hope it does."
[YOUR EXACT WORDS]

You hope that a person is offended ?! What kind of bad feelings you must have in your head ? Once again, I am sorry for you...

After reading all this I don't know what to say i suppose that you all have a point (one way or another). Personally i haven't been insulted more than once and then the comment was: "Ok, why would you attack me when I have shown no aggression towards you, and you're getting ass-raped by the Saudis? Is it something personal or are you just retarded?" Now of this would be written to a kid then that kid maybe very sad and probably tell her/his parents. In that case retellion has a point. I didn't care to much about that comment though because after i told the player who wrote it to cam down he apologized.

But let's put in another situation. When i was a kid my dad fell from a roof six metres down in the concrete. Now this gave him a problem with his brain and he wasn't the same person anymore. During this i was assulted physically and psychological. I was a wreck i was mad for nothing and i he did that to me for 5 years and i was harrassed in school and felt like a failury. if i had join this site when i was 11 or 12 and revived such a comment i would have been mad and i would have felt tierd of life. now the point is: we don't know the personality of the users there might be someone (later maybe) that is in my situation and recive a comment like that (but let's hope not).

I just saw this now, wow, settle down. I will tell you what I wrote about france. I said to the clown playing france that he played france like wwII, where I compared him to france's ability in ww2 which was like having a national flag of white(surrender), in history due to the quick german invasion of france. At least Poland fought on horseback against the germans. And in that game what set this off was sverige, who let norge solo the game without any attempt to stop him because he was just "happy" as he put it to survive. And I let loose on him how stupid that was, this game is meant to stop the solo's you settle for a draw only when you can do no more advancement. then all the "group hug babies" kicked in. And I might have flung a few bad words around but they weren't innocent either.

And yes, I have played with Ruffhaus a long time, but that has nothing to do with this except for his ideals of how this game should be played agrees with mine. And what pisses me off when players are just "happy" to survive while another nation solos. Instead of whining about the 1st ammendment here why don't we try to adhere to how this game was originally set up to be played. NOTHING more annoying than a player "letting" another solo, solo's should be extremely hard to achieve not given to them.

And for all those of you that think I am a grumpy old man, come up to wisconsin strap on some skates and we'll play a little one on one in hockey, leave your diaper at home.

I must agree here with what seems to be the majority and say that this is a lot to do about nothing. I have to ask, is the problem for some the offensive language or the rip on France? It is in the same order as "For sale one French rifle, never been fired only dropped once". Come on, we say much worse here in the states to each other about our respective home states.
I am not a big fan of public berating, and overly offensive language here either, but in this case I think it's more the case of some ones hurt national pride.
As for Ruffy and Defiant being rude and classless, by all means yes I agree. They can both be huge assbags, and are extremely over bearing at times.....wait , what was my point here.? " Sarcasm " boys, in case some here don't get it.

Now on to the Arlington Million and some horse wagering.

Mods are great, (and doing great stuff for this site) but they are not police.

If - in your opinion - another player is using offensive language that you believe should not be tolerated on this site, or when you feel personally offended, you can talk to that player yourself. And you (better than a moderator) can explain clearly how he/she offended you and why that is such an important thing to you. You don't need a mod to do it for you. It would only be in extreme cases that a mod should be involved. And extreme cases - in my opinion - do definately not involve people saying swear words, or shouting and screaming at each other, or making funny (or not so funny) jokes about your imaginary country.

flogging a dead horse...

xenophobic
zɛnəˈfəʊbɪk/
adjective: xenophobic

having or showing an intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries.

What a bunch of cry babies!
They don't like hearing a particular thing said and they run and tell on that person and ask for censorship over the entire site. While some CLAIM they are not asking for censorship, they really are. They want some things not allowed, they want moderators to edit some things said, ummmm, that's censorship and it can not be allowed. If you have some young kids here and they happen to see an f bomb dropped, first, being on the internet, I doubt it's the first time they saw it, second, these younger kids are the ones more likely to use them, and lastly, it is not our job to watch over what these kids are exposed to, it's their parents!

What I seem to find is we have a person or two here who like things "just so" they want it their way and only their way. If someone types a curse word they do not like, then they want it removed, if someone tells a joke about France, then good God man, remove it post haste, we can't disparage the French (it would appear they can't take jokes about their tanks having gears only in reverse very well).

If you want to communicate on a forum based platform, then you need thicker skin. If you do not like what was said, then you need to speak up either in that forum and/or to that person. Bringing it to all is a bit of a baby move isn't it? Rally together the other baby's who agree with you and cry real loud.... it aint working!

as suggested earlier, grow a pair and rub some dirt on them!

If a 15 year old was playing in this game, he even learned a little history! It was true, the French were pushovers in WWII. Of all the things I've seen said on this site, THAT'S the one that gets brought up?! As has been said, this is a war game. It's also a game that players have a lot of passion about, and they play competitively. Tempers will flare, shit (I mean.. Poop..) happens! It's all part of it!

I'd also like to state that this is the internet. If you have yet to be offended on the internet you're definitely new to this invention. When billions of people, all who have different ideas and opinions, are connected, what would you think would happen? It'd be a super happy tea party? Nooo.. Haha.

If you have a problem talk with that person. We're all good talkers. (or so we think...) I mean, we DO play diplomacy.

As a last note, I can also attest to DEFIANT kicking ass in hockey. If you do decide to 1v1, I recommend buying some top-o-the line pads. It won't be a very pleasant experience for you!!

"Lighten Up, Francis"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OnpkDWbeJs&feature=kp

perfect!

I think there are two different kinds of insults
#1 Role playing: We could discuss forever what is allowed and what not there. During the game i try playing a role and this might envolve very strong wording. There are of course always borders.

#2 Outside of the game:
I doubt there is role playing necessary in this forum or in the global AFTER the game has ended.

So what is allowed to say outside?
I would personally state:
Insults and calling names and swearing like "you're so full of shit your eyes are brown" & "at least get that right, boy wonder" reveal more about the person that write it, then the one addressed. So why should i mind about it?

As you might notice i started the discussion with defiant in first place in that global. He was not capable enough to realise that in parts i agreed with him. He didn't understand that. He couldn't understand why i was happy to survive. Some people get angry if they don't understand things.

After realising he will not convince us the last thing he was capable of intellectually and empathic was swearing and insulting. What did it bring him? He let of steam and probably slept better, but all other players have seen what kind of character he is.

If he would have threaten somebody i would agree a moderator should take action, but I don't think it's necessary in that case. I think we have the tools to mute people and that is great. If i don't want to hear insults i mute.

PS: my reaction was also not the greatest as i've seen him getting more and more annoyed. I was very amused by that and pured more oil in the fire to see him explode at one point which lead to this thread :)

gooseshit, you're a moron, nothing about pouring fuel on the fire, you are just too stupid to realize what I was trying to say. Why don't you explain why I was mad, oh because you can't defend it, that's why you half wit. My point was and still is, if you can read english, is we are to stop solo's at all costs, you can't get that through your 5 inch thick cranium. You think this is about insults and who gets the better word, its not, its about playing the game and when you said, "I am just so happy to survive", it tells me you don't know shit about how this game is meant to play.
You said in it your last paragraph, "see how annoyed I can get him", nothing about the logic of the agument of how the game should be played. How old are you, i'll bet not past your mid 20's are you, if that. That's why I told you to grow up. You're so damn dumb you don't get the jist of the argument. Please bring more to the table than your sub-teen iq, ok?

Retillion definitely has a point in general. I don't think that this is a particularly good example of it, but it's certainly not something that should be brushed off into the hands of self-moderation.

Also, defiant, I don't think I've ever played with you, but dear god you sound like a complete asshole. There are different incentives in PPSC games to WTA games, and if you don't understand that you probably shouldn't be playing PPSC.

here's an example.
We have in the past several posts phrases such as "you're so full of shit...", "Gooseshit you're a moron", "you half wit", "tempers will flare, shit"
If we had censorship, all this would be lost and in fact, some of these were simple examples and no intent to upset others, but censors censor across the board and some of the above was people calling others names... big deal.
We are all big boys and have thick skin, it simply proves such language is usually stupid, foolish, makes the person using that language stupid, but it's simply something that should be self controlled.

Defiant has point here: solo's should be stopped at all cost no matter if it's WTA or PPSC

I think the best way to play this game is to try to solo yourself or at least draw with at least other players, and stop solo's of others at all cost. WTA rewards just that playing style, hence I play WTA games only.

However I know there are others that play the game in a different way. I know that if in a particular game the game mode is PPSC en thus rewards survivals, there could be players that are fine just playing for a survival. Since that fits the game mode and I don't see a reason to value my preferences more than that of others, I wouldn't complain about that. It's not that because I like WTA everyone must play all of their games like it is WTA.

Players that like the WTA playing style shouldn't expect everyone else to play all of their games in that style, and should just play WTA games only. That would solve most of the problems.

Actually what would solve many of the problems discussed on this thread would be to do away with the PPSC games completely, or at a bare minimum make WTA the default setting. Instead we have experienced players who prey on noobs and weak players, gaming the system and exploiting the gimics of the PPSC setting. PPSC is an atrocity that ignores the very essence of the game. The only real value in it to begin with is that it allows newer players to keep some points in games that they lose. However, since the site affords all players a minimum of 100 to play with, this is all very redundant.

That's not to say that all problems of players arguing with each other will go away, but a high percentage of them will by simply teaching players to play Diplomacy rather than defaulting to this welfare system.

Mercy's approach is a good one in that he only plays WTA games. Unfortunately these games are presented as an expert setting, and therefore most players here are not exposed to the basic Diplomacy expectations that WTA provides. This disappoints experienced players and teaches new players how to play the game on training wheels.

The suggestion that players that like WTA should not expect games to be played by the rules is rather obtuse. Is this not a site where Diplomacy is played? Is it specifically created to harvest and teach new players or to explore variant play? Once again WTA is not an advanced/expect setting. It's the very core aspect of the game, and without it you're missing the entire point.

"Defiant has point here: solo's should be stopped at all cost no matter if it's WTA or PPSC "

@defiant, you don't get it. I almost completly support you on this. I think a player should always try to get the maximum out for himself (a solo, draw or worst case at least survive). BUT also ideally grant the minimum success to his enemy (no solo, no draw!, no survive), which means no solo in first place. It might be a slightly different interpretation of yours as i am "egoistic" at first and look at my success rather then the enemies.

If you would calm down we could maybe have grown up discussion about this and maybe even find an agreement. But again the only thing you are capable of is insults, calling names. And why?
Because you think i don't understand you?
Because you think I didn't play the game as YOU intend it to be.

I just played the game and tried to get the best out for myself within the rules the game engine provide and i actually I DO understand you. I personally think the score rating should be changed to also reflect and motivate this kind of behavior. I don't wanna be a political puppet forever ;)

So again: I agree one should NOT let win somebody else but try to get as much out of a game for himself BUT also I don't like games where you can see people try to draw right after they killed a few players in the game. There are many of those games as well.

But now we are a bit off topic IMHO although i would like to participate in discussions about how good draws are and be constructive about this topic...

BACK TO TOPIC
If i don't understand you? What's the reason for calling me names? Think about it a bit? Your next deeper level of insults reveal again a lot about yourself, so Defiant, you made my point very clear again by writing a "super intellectual", constructive and grown up posting.

So now that we brought defiant into this discussion and he gave us a little taste of how friendly and understanding he is, we should maybe discuss again if we want such behavior inside and outside (forum) of the game.

Still i don't think we need mods to stand up and protect us, ban people or do things like this as long as it's not threats.

But maybe we find some grown up people in this community that help giving defiant a bit of education. Education it seems he deserves and requires. We need people that condemn such kind of disrespectful behavior.

PS Defiant: I am actually in my mid (to end :( ) 30s, studied and well trained in communication.

oh gosh I am so tired of hearing the old "diplomacy needs to be played this way" talk.

The game should be played for a solo or to prevent a solo by going for a draw, most of us agree on this.

But, Ruffhaus and Defiant- nothing prevents players from playing however they want if it is within the rules... get used to it for cripes sake, or set up a little Diplomacy club in your den, and never ever come out! It's like poker, if you have chips, then you're playing. You can't gripe about what a player is "supposed" to do. Russia wasn't supposed to shoot down commercial aircraft either, but there's always winners and losers, heroes and villians, aren't there? The both of you need to chill your pipes, just relax and play.

The problem here is that Defiant chose to play an anon gunboat game, PPSC, worth a total pot of 82 . What did you expect, a Championship game?

And I agree with Retillion, there should be a standard of personal respect between the players. You might disagree with a playing style or move, but it is quite under character to throw personal insults around.

Well, Raro, if you and Retillion want a standard of respect from others, then you should show it to others. But you don't, and that's why you get treated in a way that you don't like. You can be so tired of hearing the old talk all you want, but as long as the problems exist and go unaddressed, they are going to create conflicts. Your failure to grasp the issue is as bad as your ability to read and comprehend. The heart of the issue is with PPSC games set as the default. That setting absolutely does not encourage players to solo or to prevent a solo. It does neither. It does the exact opposite. But then again you're just ignoring that because those facts get in the way of the agenda that the likes of players like you and Retilion who cannot compete with top players, but have some need to be recognized as a top player.

I don't have a need to be recognized a top player, not sure where you get that... YOU, however, HAVE A NEED to point out that no one is as good as you!! There is a big difference. You are disillusioned by this game and you should find a new hobby. Go for a walk or something.

p.s. I don't want a standard of respect from the likes of you, I gave that up a long time ago, when you went around publicly calling me a "cheating, meta-gaming, [multiple expletives]" and trying to shame me to the rest of the community.... all For stabbing you in a game, that's right... for doing something you're supposed to do in this game. It was then, and only then, that I started *not showing you respect. So please don't give me the "treat others how you want to be treated" bullshit from your mouth.

I've long respected your play, and I get along fine with you and Defiant, I just think that Gaius Ruffhaus Ceasar, and his sidekick Quintus Defiant need to get off their high horse and respect the other people of this community as fellow people, putting aside their egoistic diplomatic crusade against all who "DO NOT PLAY THE GAME CORRECTLY" BANISH THEM ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

As rough around the edges as Ruffhaus can be, he certainly has a solid point here, and one that you can't really refute. By making PPSC the default setting, we are teaching new players that THAT is the standard way of playing, since it's the default. Then, we call WTA the "expert" setting. That discourages people who are still somewhat new from playing it since they don't feel like "experts" and don't want to get whomped on by those who play WTA and are presumably "experts". It's a cycle that breeds a community of people who never actually learn to play the game the way it was designed.

By simply flipping WTA to be the default setting, and PPSC as the alternative, we could remove that problem entirely. New players would instead learn the game as it was designed, and wouldn't have to be worried about "expert" settings, since there's really no such thing. WTA is as close as we can get to the actual game of Diplomacy when playing online.

Alternatively, we could just rename PPSC as "I don't care who wins as long as I get a point reward", which would remove any doubt from people's minds as to what the objective is :D

This conversation has taken several turns!?
WTA = ?
(Winner Take All?)
PPSC = ?

WTA = Winner Take All (the points that are wagered)
PPSC = Points per Supply Center (points wagered are given on a percentage basis, so a game that ends 18-16 SCs on the original map gives a roughly equal split of the points, whereas in WTA, the winner gets it all)